New Blue Line Cars Discussion(Now in Service)

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

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Postby mattster » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:12 am

octr202 wrote:The passenger operated doors I'm sure will cause just as much confusion as AFC when they're new, but people will figure it out.

The maintenance savings from eliminating unnecessary door cycling when no one's using it could be signifigant, as could the more pleasant winter trips when riders don't need to get a blast of cold air when there's no one getting on or off at their door. :)


Valid points, but what happens when the buttons break? They're just something else to maintain. My main concern is that these will be the only vehicles in the system with this feature. Why create unnecessary inconsistency?
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Postby sabourinj » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:35 am

octr202 wrote:The passenger operated doors I'm sure will cause just as much confusion as AFC when they're new, but people will figure it out.

The maintenance savings from eliminating unnecessary door cycling when no one's using it could be signifigant, as could the more pleasant winter trips when riders don't need to get a blast of cold air when there's no one getting on or off at their door. :)


There is no way that pushing a button will cause as much confusing as AFC does. At least you don't have to make sure you push the button with the correct side of the ticket up, arrow first :wink:

These types of systems are standard in many European tranist lines. Not only do you save on maintenence costs (door problems are one of the most common causes of delays on subway lines - just read the "yesterdays service" on WMATA and you'll see). Plus, you have a more efficient HVAC system if all the doors aren't opened unless needed.

Check out the BVG in Berlin. They have retrofitted some of the old lever-based cars to a new button system. The button lights green to indicate it was pushed and red while the door is locked (wrong side of the station or train is moving) http://www.hatesauce.com/berlin/nov03/PICT0059.JPG

I do hope the destination signs inside are blue LED, although those are significantly more expensive than red and green ones, so I don't know...

JS
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Postby octr202 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:13 am

sabourinj wrote:
octr202 wrote:The passenger operated doors I'm sure will cause just as much confusion as AFC when they're new, but people will figure it out.

The maintenance savings from eliminating unnecessary door cycling when no one's using it could be signifigant, as could the more pleasant winter trips when riders don't need to get a blast of cold air when there's no one getting on or off at their door. :)


There is no way that pushing a button will cause as much confusing as AFC does. At least you don't have to make sure you push the button with the correct side of the ticket up, arrow first :wink:

These types of systems are standard in many European tranist lines. Not only do you save on maintenence costs (door problems are one of the most common causes of delays on subway lines - just read the "yesterdays service" on WMATA and you'll see). Plus, you have a more efficient HVAC system if all the doors aren't opened unless needed.

Check out the BVG in Berlin. They have retrofitted some of the old lever-based cars to a new button system. The button lights green to indicate it was pushed and red while the door is locked (wrong side of the station or train is moving) http://www.hatesauce.com/berlin/nov03/PICT0059.JPG

I do hope the destination signs inside are blue LED, although those are significantly more expensive than red and green ones, so I don't know...

JS


Okay, okay, sure the AFC is more confusing...but have you met some of the passengers out there? :wink:

The button system isn't just standard in Europe...a lot of US light rail systems have it too. Baltimore hasn't had trouble with it.
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Postby sabourinj » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:39 am

savebowdoin wrote:
Are there such a thing as orange LED's (for the Orange Line down the road?)

Mike


Yup. Orange, Red, Green, Blue and White are the most common.

JS
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Postby StevieC48 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:33 pm

On those cold Sunday mornings when you are trying to warm up and stop at a outdoor station and open a whole train for no one or 1 person.The heat cant build up the car stays cold. LOL
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Postby GEL » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:42 pm

sabourinj wrote:
I do hope the destination signs inside are blue LED, although those are significantly more expensive than red and green ones, so I don't know...

JS
Blue LEDs are BLINDING! White LEDs, oddly is not.
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Postby sabourinj » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:45 pm

GEL wrote:
sabourinj wrote:
I do hope the destination signs inside are blue LED, although those are significantly more expensive than red and green ones, so I don't know...

JS
Blue LEDs are BLINDING! White LEDs, oddly is not.


That depends on the type of LED though. "Point source" LED's are the really bright ones, they make white ones that are extremely bright as well, like the types now used to replace flourecent tubes. The regular frosted variety would be suited for an LED sign.

JS
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Postby davedeboston » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:28 pm

mattster wrote:Valid points, but what happens when the buttons break? They're just something else to maintain. My main concern is that these will be the only vehicles in the system with this feature. Why create unnecessary inconsistency?


I know this was mentioned, however in all my travel across cities in Europe that have an underground, most if not all require one to press a button or pull a latch to open the door. This includes: Paris, Berlin, Milano, Krakow (tram), Zurich (s-bahn), Prague, Vienna and so on. I can not quite remember if the system in Madrid required a button push and I am pretty sure most tube trains do not.

I think I have only encountered a non functioning door while abroad only once or twice and a door that only half opens (only one side) is quite common on the red line or orange line. I would definitely be for this implementation on the blue line, especially with all of its above ground stops right on the water; does get a tad cold during the winter.
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Postby davedeboston » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:34 pm

Come to think of it, most long distance or commuter trains in Europe required a boarded or disembarker to operate a mechanism to open the doors. S-Bahns too.

The blue LEDs would be a nice touch.
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Postby danib62 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:47 pm

davedeboston wrote:Come to think of it, most long distance or commuter trains in Europe required a boarded or disembarker to operate a mechanism to open the doors. S-Bahns too.

The blue LEDs would be a nice touch.
I'm not holding my breath on the blue LEDs. Red and green are one thing but blue is much pricier.
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Postby MACTRAXX » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:22 pm

McTed: Good Blue Line car pictures! Where is Siemens constructing them? Will the car #s be again in the 0600 series? They have always reminded me of PATH cars with pantographs-BUT-the roof bulge more than likely NOT fit the clearance of PATHs former H&M tunnels - but in the section between JSQ and NWK just west of the Hackensack River bridge there is a mile-long or so section with de-energized catenary. What will become of the 1979 0600s? Will any be saved in any way-or will the new cars be added to the existing fleet and just maybe that talked-about Lynn extension could come to pass? I think the new ones look pretty good myself. MACTRAXX
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Postby Robert Paniagua » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:31 pm

Will the car #s be again in the 0600 series?

Definitely Nope.

They will be numbered 0700-0793 = 94 units

Since the 0600 range will be reserved for the current cars which will run tandem with these 0700s, at least a fraction of the 0600s.
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Postby StevieC48 » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:50 pm

From what i understand they are keeping an alotment of so many Hawkers I think 10. I know MCTed mentioned keeping a few. TTA of America in Hornel NY is the location of the construction of the cars in the US.
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Postby McTed » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:16 pm

Yes the new #5 cars will be numbered starting with 0700


Yes they are being assemble by TTA and their plant is located in karona [spelling?] New york.


As for the #4 Hawker Siddelely cars we have to keep, the lease currently calls for 18 to remain on the poperty until 2012 and we'll probably keep at least an additional deuce as a spare making the total 20. But belive it or not this plan is not carved in stone and it may change at some point and we'll may scrap the entire #4 car fleet.
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Postby McTed » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:24 pm

There are a number of reason the new cars will be delivered by truck and most of what has been stated here is correct.

The #5 car will be delivered by truck.

If the rapid transit cars were to transported by rail they would have to be loaded on a flat bed car before shipment, because the gearboxes and motors could not take the long haul being horsed.

Another reason I belive for the trucks is the volume they are delivered which is going to be something like four cars a month once delivery and acceptance begins.
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