Green Line Destination Signs

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: CRail, sery2831

Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby bostontrainguy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:39 pm

jwhite07 wrote:Hooray - LED destination signs instead of those horrendous LCDs. The front signs set way back inside that curved enclosure are kind of annoying though.


Actually there is something new and unique about that destination sign. Any guesses?
bostontrainguy
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby Arlington » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:26 pm

Something special to keep it clear in snow? Some sort of heating?
Last edited by CRail on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Unnecessary quote removed.
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3646
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby bostontrainguy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:45 pm

No, but thanks for playing :)
Last edited by CRail on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Unnecessary nesting quotes removed.
bostontrainguy
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby Adams_Umass_Boston » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:56 pm

They plan on rerouting all D-trains through Park?
There is a safety camera in there?

Just guesses.
User avatar
Adams_Umass_Boston
 
Posts: 894
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:26 am
Location: Eastie

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby bostontrainguy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:35 pm

No, but getting closer.

Inbound trains have never shown the route they are on. Inbound destination signs just show their final destination such as "Lechmere", "Government Center", "Park Street", etc. Only outbound Greenline trains show the route and destination as in "B - Boston College", "C - Cleveland Circle", "D - Riverside, and "E - Heath Street".

So you have never seen "D - Park Street". Just interesting to see this change. I'm wondering if it maybe has something to do with the extension but I can't quite see why that would change things as far as inbound trains go.
bostontrainguy
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby Arlington » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:17 pm

bostontrainguy wrote:Actually there is something new and unique about that destination sign. Any guesses?

Can they do a "page 1" and "page 2" like buses sometimes do?

D College Ave

followed by

D via Park
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3646
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Green Line Destination Signs

Postby Arlington » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:41 pm

Please don't add letters.

D to Tufts Hillside or Riverside
E to Union SQ or Heath

makes sense enough

Particularly if I was right that the LED rollsigns can alternately flash a "via Park" when inbound.

Then, when outbound, on the one side they might flasth:
Via North Station and then
Via Lechmere

And outbound on the other:
Via Kenmore
Or
Via Prudential

Until they are surface running.
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3646
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby MBTA3247 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:01 pm

Putting "via anything" in a destination sign has been redundant since the MTA era. What route is a car going to take that *doesn't* go via Park St?
"The destination of this train is [BEEP BEEP]" -announcement on an Ashmont train.
User avatar
MBTA3247
 
Posts: 2666
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:01 pm
Location: Milton

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby Arlington » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:55 pm

It is still pretty useful for wayfinding--more useful to novices than "inbound" or "outbound" and specifically helpful to more people in the core.

For many, the question is: will this get me to Commuter Rail (va North Station), will this get me to the Red Line (via Park) or will this get me to Fenway (via Kenmore)
Last edited by CRail on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Unnecessary quote removed.
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3646
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby bostontrainguy » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:31 pm

MBTA3247 wrote:Putting "via anything" in a destination sign has been redundant since the MTA era. What route is a car going to take that *doesn't* go via Park St?


You do realize that every tourist, student, new resident and probably 50% of all other riders will be asking the operator, "Does this train go to Park Street?"
bostontrainguy
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby BandA » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:05 pm

I like the old slash-through Not-B / Not-C / Not-D / Not-E for the reverse trip to the standard endpoint. Reserve F and perhaps G for possible Tremont service. So H & J would be logical for GLX.... if Not-D is really Medford, use H-Medford, if you short-turn at North Station then use Not-D.

To get back on topic, it would be neato to have the signs change at the end point, automatically based on the schedule to the trolley computer. Allow dispatch or the operator to override. Have trolley computer talk to the track switches & automatically route to the correct branch.
User avatar
BandA
 
Posts: 2455
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:47 am

Re: Green Line Destination Signs

Postby CRail » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:39 am

The slash was for short turns, not Boston/Cambridge bound trains.

The "trolley computer" is called an AVI (Automatic Vehicle Identifier), and already sets up routes at junctions and controls the countdown clocks. Having it control the sign, which is similar to how bus destination signs work, could probably be accomplished and may very well be possible with the new LED signs. The LCD signs were obsolete when they were installed.

bostontrainguy wrote:You do realize that every tourist, student, new resident and probably 50% of all other riders will be asking the operator, "Does this train go to Park Street?"
You think a sign flashing redundant information will have any effect on people asking redundant questions?
Moderator: Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority
Avatar:3679A (since wrecked)/3623B (now in service as 3636B).
User avatar
CRail
 
Posts: 2282
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 8:27 am
Location: Eastie

Re: Green Line Destination Signs

Postby Arlington » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:25 am

Thanks for splitting the thread! Are we done guessing and should bostontrainguy tell us how the GL 9 signs are different?
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3646
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Green Line Destination Signs

Postby bostontrainguy » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:43 am

Hi Arlington. I did. Read my post on the 20th.
Last edited by CRail on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Unnecessary quote removed.
bostontrainguy
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby Arlington » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:37 am

So the official "what's new" answer is:
bostontrainguy wrote:Inbound trains have never shown the route they are on. Inbound destination signs just show their final destination such as "Lechmere", "Government Center", "Park Street", etc. Only outbound Greenline trains show the route and destination as in "B - Boston College", "C - Cleveland Circle", "D - Riverside, and "E - Heath Street".

So you have never seen "D - Park Street". Just interesting to see this change. I'm wondering if it maybe has something to do with the extension but I can't quite see why that would change things as far as inbound trains go.


So is this a technology change or just an interesting new naming-convention thing about choosing to display a route letter on extended trains?

...on the larger topic of "what letters for the extended trains, particularly when operating inbound on the new tracks"...

Right now, plenty of official maps show the tracks across the Lechmere Viaduct as "E" route without making any distinction about whether you're coming or going. I proclaim this to be a Good Thing.

And the pocket guide associates letters with BOTH endpoints even if the trains' signs never said so. You'll see:
B Boston College - Park Street
C Cleveland Circle- North Station
D Riverside - Government Ctr.
E Lechmere - Heath Street
(interestingly it swaps directionality for the E vs the others)

So, when it comes to saying E starts at Heath and ends someplace across the Charles, "Relax, you're soaking in it" The most logical thing is to simply say that the GLX will allow the E to be extended from Lechmere to Tufts Hillside and the D to be extended from Government Center to Union Square.

I expect the pocket guide of the future to simply read:
B Boston College - Park Street
C Cleveland Circle- North Station
D Riverside - Union Square
E Heath Street - Tufts Hillside

And here's why this is desirable: People expect to "go back" on the same line they came in on

Going "in" on an E but coming home on an H or M or whatever, runs completely contrary to all user research that shows that people
- do not like Loop lines (yes, London, Melbourne, Chicago, Detroit and many "downtown trolleys" have loops, but that doesn't mean they don't confuse riders--they do.
- Lines on pairs of 1-way streets

Loops and pairs fail because it is not intuitive how to "go back" / "reverse" / "go home" after the end of a maiden/novice voyage. Instead, people expect that whatever trip can be done by "Route X" can be undone by boarding "Route X" in the contra-direction, and they expect that contra-train to be "on the other platform"

If an E "got you there," there should be an E that will "get you home" (this is true/desirable, even where, as from Kenmore to Park any of a B,C,D would allow you to reverse trip, it is really important for beginner riders knowing that if you (happened to) travel at first on a D that there will be a D in the other direction will *definitely* take you back to where you started, even if you later learn that B or C could have worked in every alternative case)
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3646
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Next

Return to Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests