Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

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Re: MBTA/Keolis considering fare gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby deathtopumpkins » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:43 am

BandA wrote:The Mt Auburn trackless trolley line, inbound they seem to collect on entry, outbound they collect on exit due to the huge rush at the Harvard busway.


No, the reason they collect on exit is because they board from the left side of the bus at Harvard - so there is no farebox at the door.
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Re: MBTA/Keolis considering fare gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby jamesinclair » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:19 am

Disney Guy wrote:
What I don't understand is how the machines will work with people who pay cash on board because their station does not have a ticket vendor...ie Wedgemere. The current receipts do not have anything that could be read by a charlie gate.


This is not applicable unless fares for inbound trips are collected upon exit (at Back Bay, South Station, North Station). Or do they plan to collect fares upon exit?.


I would assume thats the point. Seems even dumber to only collect one way

danib62 wrote:Again though how is having gates a better option then just taking $7m/yr and hiring a bunch of asst conductors to assist with fare collection? Or even dedicated fare collectors who theoretically could be paid less than asst conductors? Both of these have other ancillary benefits in terms of safety and operations.


Of course, I agree, but it may have to do with how this money is being financed.
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Re: MBTA/Keolis considering fare gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby dm1120 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:36 pm

saulblum wrote:
Disney Guy wrote:Outbound during busy periods, passengers without tickets would be required to go to the ticket window (BBY, BOS, BON). For better or worse they may have to plan better to buy tickets in advance.


I believe you can pay cash on board inbound and buy a round trip fare on the punched paper ticket, which obviously wouldn't work in a fare gate.
There would need to be a manned entry/exit booth to deal with exceptions like this. Part of the goal is to make it as inconvenient as possible to use cash.
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Re: MBTA/Keolis considering fare gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby Disney Guy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:33 pm

Admittedly it can be inconvenient go have to go to a ticket booth to buy a ticket if you have none but once you have your ticket or you have a round trip ticket it should be super convenient to enter using that ticket.
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Re: MBTA/Keolis considering fare gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby diburning » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:14 pm

Would this mean the end of the mTicket app?
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby sery2831 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:00 am

The gates will accept mTickets. The gates will be set up to require a fare in each direction. Part of the $7m is the installation of fare vending machines at EVERY station and new fare media for the conductors to sell on board.
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby danib62 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:32 am

sery2831 wrote:The gates will accept mTickets. The gates will be set up to require a fare in each direction. Part of the $7m is the installation of fare vending machines at EVERY station and new fare media for the conductors to sell on board.

I suspect we'll get something like what NJT has with barcoded tickets and gates that scan them so they can also scan mticket barcodes.
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby saulblum » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:38 am

sery2831 wrote:The gates will accept mTickets. The gates will be set up to require a fare in each direction. Part of the $7m is the installation of fare vending machines at EVERY station and new fare media for the conductors to sell on board.


Even at "stations" like Hastings that don't even have a platform?

https://goo.gl/maps/SZ7HGTJnZgF2

And what about passengers boarding outbound at, say, Porter and Yawkey? How will the conductor know which passengers passed through the gates and which have to have their fares collected?
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby Disney Guy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:23 pm

And what about passengers boarding outbound at, say, Porter and Yawkey? How will the conductor know which passengers passed through the gates and which have to have their fares collected?


The best and correct way it to see that the passenger possesses a ticket that makes sense for the geographic location where the conductor asks, for example if the train is in zone 6 then the passenger has to show a zone 6 or an appropriate interzone ticket to the conductor.

Perhaps one of these days they will invent a GPS device either mounted at the train door or carried by a conductor to stamp the date and time and place on the ticket as usage history.

Back in the old days (like before 1917) tickets had handwritten origins and destinations and/or a slew of codes and numbers that could be notched out by a punch in order to denote the date and itinerary of the passenger.
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby sery2831 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:53 pm

saulblum wrote:
sery2831 wrote:The gates will accept mTickets. The gates will be set up to require a fare in each direction. Part of the $7m is the installation of fare vending machines at EVERY station and new fare media for the conductors to sell on board.


Even at "stations" like Hastings that don't even have a platform?

https://goo.gl/maps/SZ7HGTJnZgF2

And what about passengers boarding outbound at, say, Porter and Yawkey? How will the conductor know which passengers passed through the gates and which have to have their fares collected?


The fare gates are only to verify passengers have a fare, the gates are not the method of collection. The conductor will still collect fares like normal. Very small stations that have low ridership will not get fare vending machines, collection will still be done on board.
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby saulblum » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:25 pm

sery2831 wrote:The fare gates are only to verify passengers have a fare, the gates are not the method of collection. The conductor will still collect fares like normal. Very small stations that have low ridership will not get fare vending machines, collection will still be done on board.


What a half-assed procedure. If I have to have my pass out to tap against a gate before boarding, to me and every other passenger who doesn't work for Keolis, that's fare collection.

If Keolis ran a restaurant, you'd be required to swipe your credit card before you sat down, to be sure you could pay, and then hand your card over again after you finished eating. But sometimes the restaurant would be so crowded the waiter would never get to handing you your bill.
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby Disney Guy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:16 pm

What a half assed procedure!

Don't look now but the same half assed procedure is in effect right now.

Now (possible scenario but not necessarily for each passenger):
1. Conductor comes by and asks you for your ticket.
2. Another conductor comes by (maybe you have moved to another car to go to the rest room or you offered your seat to a less firm passenger) and asks you for your ticket.

Proposed:
1. You tap or swipe your ticket at the new fare gate and then board the train.
2. See #1 preceding.
3. See #2 preceding.
(To the theater stage manager) Quit twiddling the knob and flickering the lights while the audience is entering and being seated. (To the subway motorman) Quit twiddling the knob and dinging the doors while passengers are getting off and others are waiting to board.
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby saulblum » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:13 pm

Disney Guy wrote:Now (possible scenario but not necessarily for each passenger):
1. Conductor comes by and asks you for your ticket.
2. Another conductor comes by (maybe you have moved to another car to go to the rest room or you offered your seat to a less firm passenger) and asks you for your ticket.

In three years of riding I have never been asked twice for my ticket/pass.

Passengers aren't routinely changing seats and cars.
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby BandA » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:01 pm

As I suggested before, the "magic gate" should dispense a timed & zoned seat check/receipt, which you would insert into the little tab thingy in front of you if sitting, instead of the conductor doing it for you, or flash it as the conductor walks past if standing. So that is another minor time saver. I'm assuming anybody traveling inbound or from some other station like Yawkey would see no change.

If you show up a minute before departure & need a ticket, buying the ticket on board would no longer be an option so you would miss the train under this new scheme. So I guess I'm screwed :wink:

These fare gates could take media that conductors don't accept, like charlie cards, charlie tickets, credit cards, a Mobil Speedpass, Apple Pay, Google Pay, PayPal, even other transit agency cards. Unmanned stations would get similar machines, with conductors only having to issue tickets at the smallest or most vandalized stations.
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Re: Ring of Steel at BOS, BON, & BBY

Postby saulblum » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:10 pm

BandA wrote:As I suggested before, the "magic gate" should dispense a timed & zoned seat check/receipt, which you would insert into the little tab thingy in front of you if sitting, instead of the conductor doing it for you, or flash it as the conductor walks past if standing.

Sounds great. But this isn't taking a number at the deli counter. At BOS and BON you may have 500 people flooding onto a train in a span of five minutes, passing through, what, four gates per platform?

Again, this is a harebrained approach to electronic fare collection on the commuter rail.
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