Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:48 pm

deathtopumpkins wrote:
The EGE wrote:And having everything under one roof encourages passenger-experience-enhancing planning like fare commonality, schedules timed for good connections, shared goals on multimodal projects, etc.


But that implies that we actually have any of those things - and we don't.

Fare commonality:
Sure, you can buy commuter rail fares at subway vending machines, but it's not publicized, hardly anyone actually realizes this, and it's not user-friendly since all it offers you is zones - you have to already know which zone your station is in. But there are no transfers offered, and you cannot use a CharlieCard to pay for the commuter rail. Not even as payment media to buy a ticket from a machine.
Despite being separate agencies, Chicago has better fare integration than that!

Schedueld connections:
Has the T ever done that? They can't even do such simple things as have a once-per-hour bus hold 30 seconds for people sprinting up from a subway train. Some of the RTAs might have buses intended for transferring to the commuter rail, but I would be genuinely surprised if there was enough communication (or will) for the T to actually hold a train if that bus is late.

Multimodal projects:
There are only a handful of stations where the CR and rapid transit intersect, and several of them don't even have direct connections already - so this clearly doesn't really matter to the T. Plus, the major transfer stations are already shared with other agencies anyway (e.g. Amtrak), and the T has demonstrated that they can cooperate with the RTAs and Amtrak for station planning, so I don't see that as an impediment.

I'm willing to bet passenger experience wouldn't change at all if you spun the CR off from the T.

In fact if you consider a future with regional train service around the state - Cape Flyer, Knowledge Corridor, Inland Route, state-sponsored trains to Springfield, maybe even on P&W, wouldn't it make more sense for all of these services to be under the same umbrella (MassDOT)?


Charlie Cards are now implemented by most of the RTA bus districts in the state, as well as on RIPTA in Rhode Island. Those that haven't migrated over are waiting until the next-gen system, but will have complete commonality on that mode.

If commuter rail gets properly folded in on the one-source fare system you will have that same portability statewide and throughout RI. RIDOT intrastate CR just being a mercenary Purple Line service gloms off it, and they definitely didn't go to the trouble of porting RIPTA buses over to be shut out of intermodal portability forever. Knowledge Corridor will be the same way if that service happens. The Conn River Line stays entirely within PVTA's bus district, and two-seat transfers to/from those buses are the linchpin that makes that service have any legs whatsoever as a proposal. The only thing they can't easily do is establish portability with CDOT's Hartford Line fare system, which uses Metro North's and SLE's. But I guess that can be the underlying initiative for Fare System III: the Next-next Generation. The quantum leap forward after this MA/RI statewide initiative would be some sort of universal EZPass-like thing with a translation layer that every state on the eastern seaboard can adapt to their fare collection systems.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby deathtopumpkins » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:06 pm

CRail wrote:-Zone 1A is exactly that.
-Commuter Rail passes are accepted on all trains and local buses.
-Commuter Rail passes zone 2 and up are accepted on express buses.


Zone 1A is exactly what?

And yes, monthly passes are, but that's not the same as a transfer. If we truly had proper fare integration then you would be able to transfer between the two modes without paying full fare - like subway to bus, and like you can in many other cities. As it is when transferring from the CR you may as well be transferring from Amtrak - there's no difference.

Charlie Cards are now implemented by most of the RTA bus districts in the state, as well as on RIPTA in Rhode Island. Those that haven't migrated over are waiting until the next-gen system, but will have complete commonality on that mode.


Are they? I know some RTAs are accepting them, but I have a carless friend down in RI who informed me as recently as November '16 that RIPTA was NOT accepting CharlieCards. And nowhere on RIPTA's website are CharlieCards mentioned.

And either way, my post was entirely about commuter rail vs rapid transit/bus fare commonality, not interagency commonality.

If commuter rail gets properly folded in on the one-source fare system you will have that same portability statewide and throughout RI. RIDOT intrastate CR just being a mercenary Purple Line service gloms off it, and they definitely didn't go to the trouble of porting RIPTA buses over to be shut out of intermodal portability forever. Knowledge Corridor will be the same way if that service happens. The Conn River Line stays entirely within PVTA's bus district, and two-seat transfers to/from those buses are the linchpin that makes that service have any legs whatsoever as a proposal. The only thing they can't easily do is establish portability with CDOT's Hartford Line fare system, which uses Metro North's and SLE's. But I guess that can be the underlying initiative for Fare System III: the Next-next Generation. The quantum leap forward after this MA/RI statewide initiative would be some sort of universal EZPass-like thing with a translation layer that every state on the eastern seaboard can adapt to their fare collection systems.


What you've just described would be ideal, but is incredibly far-removed from whether or not the CR is spun off into a new agency. If you want the T to coordinate with RIPTA, all the RTAs, CDOT, Metro North, SLE, and whomever else, then what so what if you lump one more agency in there (CR).

This is all hypothetical though, and I'll believe next-gen payment is coming and will be accepted on both the T and the CR when I see it.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby leviramsey » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:10 am

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:The Conn River Line stays entirely within PVTA's bus district, and two-seat transfers to/from those buses are the linchpin that makes that service have any legs whatsoever as a proposal.


Not quite. Franklin County is FRTA. Most of the ridership in Hampshire County, meanwhile is on PVTA-branded lines, but the operator for those services (UMass Transit) doesn't collect fares: UMass and the other four of the Five Colleges effectively build a bus pass into their tuitions and provide a pass as a fringe benefit for all employees (the student/employee ID functions as a pass). Officially, those lines are proof of payment for anyone who's not a student or employee, but it's a variant of proof of payment without inspections and the only way to purchase even a single-ride ticket is online and the PVTA will mail it to you. While the colleges are in session, even the non-UMass operated (but still Five College subsidized) buses between Northampton and Amherst don't bother with fare collection.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby leviramsey » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:16 am

deathtopumpkins wrote:This is all hypothetical though, and I'll believe next-gen payment is coming and will be accepted on both the T and the CR when I see it.


Considering that implementing a free transfer for CR single rides paid for with mTicket and bus/subway is easy enough a couple of interns from any CS department in Massachusetts could implement it in a summer (basically: add your CharlieCard to the mTicket app. Every time you activate an mTicket, the CharlieCard subway fare is added to the card) and it hasn't happened...
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby CRail » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:47 am

Zone 1A is a subway fare. It's a a common fare. How you can have a matching fare with matching passes (Link passes are accepted within zone 1A) and say there's no "commonality" is beyond me.

RIPTA is not a Massachusetts RTA. Of course it doesn't comply with the MassDOT standard of fare media, it has nothing to do with MassDOT (and do you think for a second any agency would voluntarily sign on to an indefinite future of high maintenance and revenue loss from an already disproven and obsolete piece of junk?).

Regarding a subway ride being included in a commuter rail fare, perhaps this isn't a price option desired by those who design the fare structure. Free subway and bus travel with Commuter Rail service is currently part of the discount obtained through purchasing a monthly pass and maybe that's how they want it.

In any event, all revenue is collected by the MBTA regardless of who the middlemen are. Fare structure has little to do with the Commuter Rail's operating contract.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby danib62 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:01 am

CRail wrote:Zone 1A is a subway fare. It's a a common fare. How you can have a matching fare with matching passes (Link passes are accepted within zone 1A) and say there's no "commonality" is beyond me.

Actually for some idiotic reason a monthly link pass is not valid for Zone 1A (or the inner harbor ferry for that matter) while the 1 and 7 day link passes are, even when purchased on a CharlieTicket. You need to purchase an identically priced Zone 1A pass...

There are some conductors who will just wave you on if you present a monthly link pass on a CharlieTicket for zone 1A travel but technically it's not policy...
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby deathtopumpkins » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:09 pm

CRail wrote:Zone 1A is a subway fare. It's a a common fare. How you can have a matching fare with matching passes (Link passes are accepted within zone 1A) and say there's no "commonality" is beyond me.


Because it's not "common". My monthly link pass is not valid at all on the commuter rail, even for zone 1A (see page 17 of the fare tariff).

And if you can purchase a fare for the subway that is not valid for the commuter rail (even if it's zone 1A and thus the same price), and vice-versa, then you do not have fare commonality.

The commuter rail and RT/bus fares are not integrated at all. They are entirely, completely, 100% separate systems, except for the CR monthlies being valid on the other modes (which is itself through an awkward kludge that is not ideal). A CR fare is as different from a subway fare as an Amtrak ticket is.

Fare structure has little to do with the Commuter Rail's operating contract.


And yeah, it actually has a lot to do with the CR's operating contract when considering the option of splitting the CR off from the MBTA.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby CRail » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:40 pm

Image
So are we just making stuff up now?

deathtopumpkins wrote:And yeah, it actually has a lot to do with the CR's operating contract when considering the option of splitting the CR off from the MBTA.

Yeah, we're just making stuff up now.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby deathtopumpkins » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:37 am

I said monthly, you just provided me an image of the exact same thing I already linked to that says 1-day and 7-day. Doesn't say monthly.

And seeing as CR conductors don't carry CharlieCard readers, I'd say no, it's not valid.

I'm not making anything up.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby deathtopumpkins » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:39 am

I'm also not even the first one to suggest splitting off the CR... I was just responding to that. So don't accuse me of making that up.

CPF363 wrote:
BandA wrote:A bankruptcy or receivership wouldn't help them with CR since it is already contracted out to a private company. It would allow them to tear up the contract, but the T isn't ready to bid a new contract and doesn't have the capability to take things in house. Plus any new contract would be at a higher price. And they already have the Fiscal Management Control Board which seems to be doing a good job and gives them everything on the CR side that receivership would. Bankruptcy would allow the T to renounce their debt, but that isn't going to happen. On the Subway/Bus side there are benefits to receivership / bankruptcy, but that is for another thread.

Maybe it is time to consider breaking the MBTA into two, with one piece being the Commuter Rail and the other Subway and Buses.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby CRail » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:54 pm

Link passes are accepted on the commuter rail (with the exception of charlie cards merely for practical reasons) and they cost the same as a 1A, AND they grant transfers. The fares are, by the definition of the word, common. Fare commonality in plain black and white. Moving on...

Splitting the Commuter Rail from the MBTA is not actually a thing that's happening, it's not even something that's a speculated possibility. It's MADE UP. It's an off the wall idea someone came up with that's not worth any attention here because A.) it isn't happening and B.) IF it were something being discussed it wouldn't belong in this thread anyway.

The horse is dead.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby BandA » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:27 pm

Back to topic. If you were to clean room the next contract, what would it look like? How would you incent the operator?
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby FCM2829 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:19 pm

I wonder how much are they projected to lose by 2022? And why?
Was it a lack of due diligence or just plain lowballing?
Will the accumulated underbid amount add up to $184m difference between the Keolis and the MBCR bids?
Last edited by FCM2829 on Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby BandA » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:53 pm

I would think they would be projected to make money overall. But not as much as they had expected.
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Re: Keolis Contract Will Not Be Extended; New Bid for 2022

Postby FCM2829 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:47 pm

'Make money overall' might be a bit of an overstatement:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bizjou ... ent=safari
Plus, an additional $15m per year until the contract is up.
No info on why.
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