Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby typesix » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:00 pm

Type7trolley wrote:As for the "filtered air conditioned air" the HVAC blowers are hurting more than helping at that point. Those filters do not eliminate smoke and the system will continue drawing outside air in, quickly polluting the car and likely making it worse than the platform, the car being a confined space. Buildings are required to have smoke detectors in HVAC ducts for this reason, to shut the system down in case of a smoke condition.


Smoke detectors in ductwork are only required for HVAC systems with 2000cfm(cubic feet per minute) of air circulation or more, so small building systems do not necessarily have them.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby Disney Guy » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:21 am

Can''t win. Ventilation shuts off perhaps due to malfunctioning smoke detector on a hot summer day, train stopped between stations, and crash go the windows.

But I don't remember broken windows back in the 1960's and 1970's with the Orange Line 01100's. Occasionally one would have heat on in the summer (or no heat in winter) because some of the heat came from the propulsion system (motors, resistance grids) and "summer/winter" louvers in the ductwork were malfunctioning or incorrectly set.
(To the theater stage manager) Quit twiddling the knob and flickering the lights while the audience is entering and being seated. (To the subway motorman) Quit twiddling the knob and dinging the doors while passengers are getting off and others are waiting to board.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby KevinSun242 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:11 pm

Another reason why the operator may not have opened the doors is that if you saw the video of people evacuating, many of them were kicking out the windows on the doors themselves and climbing through them. It would be somewhat of a bad idea to try to open the door while somebody is in the middle of it.


And in response to the person calling it vandalism and why the T doesn't call the passengers out on it, they did do this a while back. Joe Pesaturo went out and said during another smoke incident that the passengers should not have kicked out the windows and that they never were any danger. That ended up being a PR disaster.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby Red Wing » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:55 am

Chicago's CTA has emergency releases for the doors and they are 3rd rail territory. They also keep the doors unlocked between the cars so you can get away from issues easier.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby Arborwayfan » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:05 pm

Joe D, you're right that we should notice the exits wherever we are. A wise theater tech director told me many times: "The audience are like sheep. They will go out the door they came in unless you tell them differently." We only used the entrance on one side of the theater. His instructions for a fire or fire alarm in the theater: Stage manager to center stage, interrupt action, point out all the exits, including the two the audience never would have thought about. That, and my mom's college alumni magazine periodically has a story from an alumn who credits college fire drills and instructions to plan ahead for such drills with saving her life in a hotel fire or some such. (My mom graduated 1970 and different alumns are still writing in with their experiences in fires.) Some transit systems have big posters with emergency procedures. T might try the same, at least on a few cars at any give time, so that regular commuters get a clear idea of what to do.

Here's the Santiago, Chile, Metro webpage with instructions and videos for different kinds of evacuations. They also have posters in the trains, but I don't have a picture.
http://www.metro.cl/ciudad/emergencia
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby DaWolf85 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:24 pm

Red Wing wrote:Chicago's CTA has emergency releases for the doors and they are 3rd rail territory. They also keep the doors unlocked between the cars so you can get away from issues easier.

So do the Orange Line cars actually, it's just that the emergency release is hidden away underneath a seat next to the door, so there's no way your average passenger would know about it. Similarly, there are door releases externally as well, but they're not publicized, so in situations like this, people don't use them. Of course, if they were publicized, you'd likely see people using them in all sorts of questionable situations, but I personally think that's an acceptable price to ensure that trains can be evacuated in a safe and orderly manner when there's a real emergency.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby CRail » Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:14 am

KevinSun242 wrote:And in response to the person calling it vandalism and why the T doesn't call the passengers out on it, they did do this a while back. Joe Pesaturo went out and said during another smoke incident that the passengers should not have kicked out the windows and that they never were any danger. That ended up being a PR disaster.


They need to! What's absurd is statements like "If I see smoke I'm smashing a window." If you do that you should be banned from the system as you're a detriment to public safety. Fire alarms in large buildings are designed now to orchestrate a civil and organized evacuation because we've seen countless times how chaos results in tremendous unnecessary casualty. If it were a good idea for widows to be used as emergency exits, the windows would be emergency exits. Again, it's not a design flaw that they aren't! The public needs to be better trained in what to do in an emergency (ie. if a door slides open while the train is at speed, push the call box to notify the motorman, recording it with your cell phone does nothing to negate the hazard). Whether that's accomplished by more signage, videos in stations like Amtrak's clips that loop at South Station, televised PSAs, all of the above, or whatever, it needs to be done.

Quite often, a train will come up on a small fire in the tracks likely ignited by the preceding train's passage (from which the tunnel can accumulate a lot of smoke) and the motorman will hop out of the cab with an extinguisher, put it out, and continue the trip. What happens if you start bashing a window so people can jump out and when you do that the train starts moving? Now you've gotten people killed completely without purpose.

This automatic reaction to smashing things is going to result in death. The T needs to stop worrying about PR when safety is concerned and act as though safety really is a concern.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby Rockingham Racer » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:29 pm

Umm, seems some sort of announcement would be helpful in that situation, wouldn't it? You know--tell the passengers what's going on
[in English, of course]. :wink:
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby Yellowspoon » Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:25 pm

[quote="dieciduej"... By the way NYC MTA cars are the same way for emergency exits on cars and they have 3rd rail coverboards.

JoeD[/quote]Why doesn't the T cover the 3rd rail? Especially within the Park Street Red Line station? With platforms on both sides of the trains, the 3rd rail must be right under one platform. I've always been concerned that a patron will fall onto the 3rd rail from the platforms.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby Backshophoss » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:36 pm

Believe the 3rd rail is not a paddle design but a shoe that hangs on "links",like CTA does on Chicago's EL trackage.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby typesix » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:20 pm

Backshophoss wrote:Believe the 3rd rail is not a paddle design but a shoe that hangs on "links",like CTA does on Chicago's EL trackage.


No, the T does not use a hanging shoe design.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby dieciduej » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:29 am

Yellowspoon wrote:
dieciduej wrote:... By the way NYC MTA cars are the same way for emergency exits on cars and they have 3rd rail coverboards.

JoeD
Why doesn't the T cover the 3rd rail? Especially within the Park Street Red Line station? With platforms on both sides of the trains, the 3rd rail must be right under one platform. I've always been concerned that a patron will fall onto the 3rd rail from the platforms.


Backshophoss wrote:Believe the 3rd rail is not a paddle design but a shoe that hangs on "links",like CTA does on Chicago's EL trackage.


The Orange Line now uses paddle type contact shoes, this has been since the arrival of the Main Line #11 cars in 1957 (01100-01199). Also the Red Line with the Cambridge/Dorchester #5s (01400-01491) in 1963 and the Blue Line with the East Boston Tunnel #3s (0548-0587) in 1951. Previous to that the hanging type of shoe was used.

EDIT: Someone reminded me that the use of sleet scrapers also precludes the use of coverboards.

Because the original design used a hanging type shoe, coverboards could not be used. So using the old adage “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Another problem with the use of coverboards on surface trackage is the possibility of snow and ice build up. NYCMTA now uses coverboards, they made the capital$ decision to do it.

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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby BandA » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:32 am

So coverboards could be used in underground stations. Also, wouldn't coverboards prevent ice buildup on the 3rd rail? You could also use a system in stations where 3rd rail is deenergized when a train is not above it.
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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby dieciduej » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:06 pm

BandA wrote:So coverboards could be used in underground stations. Also, wouldn't coverboards prevent ice buildup on the 3rd rail? You could also use a system in stations where 3rd rail is deenergized when a train is not above it.


Na, na BandA! :P I have seen the sleet scrapers still engaged at Downtown Crossing. Also their retracted position may interfere with a coverboards.

As for preventing ice buildup I'm not that sure of it. If you get a heavy wet snow it may pack in there between the board and top of the 3rd rail.

Energizing and de-energizing would be a nice idea but would add an extra layer of problems that could occur. Switching the power on and off every time a train came through would wear out switch gear and so on.

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Re: Back Bay Orange Line Evacuation 10/26/16

Postby CRail » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:24 pm

Rockingham Racer wrote:Umm, seems some sort of announcement would be helpful in that situation, wouldn't it? You know--tell the passengers what's going on
[in English, of course]. :wink:

Kind of hard to make an announcement from the cab when you're halfway through the train opening doors. It's a shame a second crewmember has become an outrageous concept in this century, sure came in handy in a situation like this before computers were thought to be better at everything.
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