Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby typesix » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:29 pm

Boeings were the lightest of the modern cars at around 67,000 lbs. A T7 and T8 weight about 85,000 and 86,000 lbs. PCCs before the AC conversion were about 40000 lbs. PCCs can draw more power at start up because of its resistor type motor controls, but of course at speed is much lower than the others.
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:27 pm

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:When those PCC cars retire, I will miss seeing them but nostalgia doesn't last forever. Hopefully, the PCC cars can continue to hold out well for the next 8 to 10 years on the Mattapan-Ashmont Line.
Unless MBTA follows SF-MUNI had gives each car a full rebuild. MUNI expects at least 70+ years out of extensive rebuild work. Or a PCC-II option (modern LRVs built from stripped PCC shells).
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby Red Wing » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:10 pm

Loved this quote:

During the Control Board meeting on Monday, MassDOT CEO Stephanie Pollack questioned parts of the report presented by MBTA Chief Engineer Erik Stoothoff. Specifically, Pollack voiced concerns about the "resiliency" of light-rail cars moving forward, due to issues with the overhead catenary wire system used to power the vehicles.

"On the bus side, we’re looking at battery electric vehicles as a way of eventually getting out of the overhead catenary on our trolley buses because, frankly, every time it’s windy, every time it’s icy, it presents operational issues," said Pollack. "I understand that the buses are not popular with the community, but battery electric buses need no overhead catenary, and that’s a resiliency issue."


So I thought catenary would take care of these issues since the pantograph scrapes the ice off and has a much wider contact area, at least try to use a Green Line comparison.
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby Disney Guy » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:53 am

I am not sure what resiliency issues the Mattapan line catenary has that the Riverside line catenary does not have.

But in order to run current Green Line cars at Mattapan either the cars have to have trolley poles added or the complete catenary modified for pantographs.
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby Type7trolley » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:33 pm

It seems a bit premature to be touting the performance of battery buses in sub freezing temperatures. Battery technology is not known for its prime cold weather performance, but those results will speak for themself. The conversion of trackless trolley lines to battery buses (itself a decision of questionable merit) is not an equivalent case to the paving and conversion of dedicated streetcar right of way to buses, at higher cost. If overhead wire is suddenly such an issue, why is a similar case not being made for conversion of the other surface branches? What about the Blue Line? For once the T has an easy decision to make: the cheaper option is the better one. Leave it to our Transportation Secretary (possessed by the wayward spirit of Thomas J. McLernon) to find a reason for bus conversion in the face of what is best for riders and the bottom line.

On a more hopeful note, assuming attitudes towards transit in Boston have entered the 21st century by 2030, the 24 Type 9s (with new carhouse and maintenance facility at Mattapan) would form an excellent fleet for extended streetcar service to Dudley. The current bus ridership on this route certainly warrants it, and will most likely be running in dedicated lanes by this time anyway. Hopefully a PCC or two can be spared for historic use as well.
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby benboston » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:12 pm

I don't agree that this is a good idea, but I think that a better comparison would be Amtrak because the T always cites the Blue Line being located near the ocean, and in turn the higher amounts of corrosive air as the reason that it has fantastic wintertime reliability.
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby typesix » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:14 pm

AAA just released a study on electric automobile range and found that range decreased by 40 percent at 20 deg F compared to 75 deg F ambient. Most of that decrease came from using electric heat for the cabin.
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby benboston » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:22 am

typesix wrote:AAA just released a study on electric automobile range and found that range decreased by 40 percent at 20 deg F compared to 75 deg F ambient. Most of that decrease came from using electric heat for the cabin.


I also heard that the report may be false. We own an EV and it doesn't lose 40% of its charge in the wintertime.
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby Disney Guy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:06 am

We own an EV

Do you make a continuing effort to minimize the use of interior heat and air conditioning compared with the average driver with an average gasoline fueled car?

Battery powered "DMUs" anyone? Quiet rail operation continued on the Mattapan line with no catenary. Little over 100 years ago Third Ave. Railway System in NYC had some, running only as single units. Back then, heat was from a small coal stove, or there was no heat.
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby BandA » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:18 pm

As a driver of a gas powered vehicle, I try to minimize use of A/C, although like most MBTA vehicles ventilation is inadequate and energy-wasting A/C is required even at ambient temperatures. I miss the "barn door" vents on my parent's '74 Plymouth Duster aka Ruster.

Replacing catenary with battery-powered vehicles? That's the stupidest idea ever: increased complexity, increased weight, increased cost. I bet charging batteries wastes a lot more energy than the catenary distribution. And reliability of batteries probably just as bad or worse than catenary. Now, if you are building a new line, battery power might be cheaper than new catenary.

Still cannot comprehend why replacing the PCCs makes sense unless you need to eliminate the second-car operator (who's only function is fare collection). Fixing the PCCs in perpetuity is cheaper than buying new vehicles. Need to reacquire some for spares and expansion. And I don't understand retiring existing cars early on other lines just to shift them to the Mattapan line.
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby benboston » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:14 pm

Do you make a continuing effort to minimize the use of interior heat and air conditioning compared with the average driver with an average gasoline fueled car?


Nope
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Re: Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley Line Discussion

Postby rethcir » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:24 pm

Having a future home for the Type 9s gives the T more leeway to make radical infrastructure changes for the Type 10s - for the “green line transformation” effort that had been discussed earlier this year.
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