Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

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Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby Bramdeisroberts » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:08 am

I was just walking over the Wellington Skywalk and I noticed a married pair (1215 is the number that I believe I saw) that appeared to be freshly painted. Given the pretty dismal state of the OL fleet and the potential 4-5 years it will take for the replacements to get here, it would make sense to institute at least a cosmetic refurbishment program on the 1200s, but I was wondering if anyone here knew any more about this.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby MBTA F40PH-2C 1050 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:37 am

I have made the same observation myself racing along side them in the Corridor. They are doing married pair cars at a time, seeing as some train sets include the "non make up" wearing cars in the 6 car sets...I must say, a fresh set of paint makes these girls look good again. They'll last another few years with the new look...and give the impression to out of towners that don't know any better, that they are "new" cars haha
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:55 pm

01214 and 01215 were involved in the recent derailment, this may explain something.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby Bramdeisroberts » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:34 pm

That's interesting to hear for sure. Maybe now that they're finished with the 1700 rebuild they're thinking of doing the same sort of "soft rebuild" for the 1200s as well.

There's no firm timeline for their replacements, and all signs point to the new RL and OL stock being much, much more technologically ambitious than the Siemens cars on the Blue line (read: much more likely to have major teething issues regardless of build quality). That being the case, I can see a bunch of reasons why the T might want to freshen up at least a portion of the 1200 fleet as an early supplement to whatever replaces them, whenever it comes...

EDIT: As luck would have it, I just rode on 1214 and I can say that while the roof has been repainted (and the conduits along the roof, pantograph hard points perhaps?) Have been removed, the train was otherwise identical to any of the other OL cars I've ridden in the past few days. It did look sharper though, for what that's worth...
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby Slushbucket » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:38 pm

Perhaps the T is also dolling some of the cars up for the Assembly Square station opening? :wink: Having rustbuckets show up for the ribbon cutting wouldn't make for a good photo op.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby Bramdeisroberts » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:05 pm

That's what I was also thinking. The Orange Line on the northside has been a magnet for TOD's, between Northpoint, Assembly Row, and the complex at Wellington. Add in the proposed mega-TOD at Forest Hills and I would bet there's some gentle pressure on the T to make the Orange Line take on an image that's at least a bit more presentable than the current Mad Max-esque aesthetic that the 1200s convey.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:47 pm

Bramdeisroberts wrote:That's what I was also thinking. The Orange Line on the northside has been a magnet for TOD's, between Northpoint, Assembly Row, and the complex at Wellington. Add in the proposed mega-TOD at Forest Hills and I would bet there's some gentle pressure on the T to make the Orange Line take on an image that's at least a bit more presentable than the current Mad Max-esque aesthetic that the 1200s convey.


The Orange Blossoms aren't too unattractive...on the outside. They've gotten regular enough repainting over the years to not develop an excess of rust spots. But there's no lipstick you can put on this pig: faded faux-wood paneling straight out of the Carter Administration and moldy, jaundice-yellowed covers on all the light fixtures.

That and the brutalist station bunkers all throughout Haymarket-North. It's like a trip in time back to the era of Iran Hostage Crisis, stagflation, and Carlton Fisk and Fred Lynn bitterly leaving town as free agents.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:24 am

Although the 01200s date to 1980, the basic car body and layout is based on the 1972 PATH PA3, in turn a variant of the 1965 PA1.

As I said before, with the 01200s PA3-based, it could make sense for the new Red/Orange cars to be stretched versions of PA5s, saving costs and building off a proven, reliable off-the-shelf model. Perhaps the PA5's signature feature: on-board television (PATHVISION) could be used.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby boblothrope » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:07 pm

R36 Combine Coach wrote:Although the 01200s date to 1980, the basic car body and layout is based on the 1972 PATH PA3, in turn a variant of the 1965 PA1.

As I said before, with the 01200s PA3-based, it could make sense for the new Red/Orange cars to be stretched versions of PA5s, saving costs and building off a proven, reliable off-the-shelf model. Perhaps the PA5's signature feature: on-board television (PATHVISION) could be used.


Why not tweak the design of the Siemens Blue Line cars for the new Orange order? They seem to work pretty well.

For the Red Line, I'd just dust off the blueprints and order some more 1800s. Those are the best subway cars the T owns.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby BostonUrbEx » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:45 pm

There's already a thread on this. I tried searching for it multiple times to link to it, but now I can't find it? The in-house mini-overhaul has been going on for maybe a year now. They're working hard to patch up rusted out areas, repainting the trains, upgrading the lighting, and removing the pantograph provisions. The work seemed to have slowed down after the initial work, but maybe now it is ramping up again?
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:15 pm

boblothrope wrote:
R36 Combine Coach wrote:Although the 01200s date to 1980, the basic car body and layout is based on the 1972 PATH PA3, in turn a variant of the 1965 PA1.

As I said before, with the 01200s PA3-based, it could make sense for the new Red/Orange cars to be stretched versions of PA5s, saving costs and building off a proven, reliable off-the-shelf model. Perhaps the PA5's signature feature: on-board television (PATHVISION) could be used.


Why not tweak the design of the Siemens Blue Line cars for the new Orange order? They seem to work pretty well.

For the Red Line, I'd just dust off the blueprints and order some more 1800s. Those are the best subway cars the T owns.


The 01800's are 20-year-old tech. While the basics haven't changed that much since '94, there's been enough evolutionary improvements that no manufacturer would bit on an exact replica that doesn't match what they've set themselves up to manufacture these days. There's better stuff to be had with 2014's tech.

The caveat, as always, is avoiding the T's compulsive and perpetually self-defeating need for overcustomization. Fit the damn things into a Red- and Orange-shaped tincan and outfitted with T-spec ATO boxes, but for chrissakes keep the guts as bulletproof-generic as the most reliable recent MTA order. Nobody cares whether this button *has* to be X inches from the operator's fingers or what feature creep *has* to go in the onboard computer. Make them bloody work. The procurement requests aren't exactly promising signs that they've learned their lesson after so many bullet holes in shoe.

Even the quite very successful Siemens 0700's were overcustomized to absurdity from propulsion system selection right down to splitting-hairs computer minutia. Who knows if Siemens even wants to bid with how much more difficult the T's obsessive-compulsive specs made their job.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby Bramdeisroberts » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:35 pm

In a perfect world, all we really would need for the Red and Orange Line cars would be to adapt the BBD architecture that underpins the Toronto Rockets and the London S-stock to fit in the Red and Orange Line loading gauges. That would give the Red Line trains the extra capacity they need while giving the Orange Line the ability to grow into the future ridership that will come with all of that development along that corridor.

Absent that perfect world solution, let's bring Kawasaki into the picture and have them adapt their BMT/IND designs to the Red Line and stretch the PA5 cars to fit the Orange Line if we just want simple and reliable more than anything else.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby sery2831 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:17 pm

BostonUrbEx wrote:There's already a thread on this. I tried searching for it multiple times to link to it, but now I can't find it? The in-house mini-overhaul has been going on for maybe a year now. They're working hard to patch up rusted out areas, repainting the trains, upgrading the lighting, and removing the pantograph provisions. The work seemed to have slowed down after the initial work, but maybe now it is ramping up again?


I think it was talked about in a thread that off topic as I recall...

This has been going on for several years. Seems to come in waves. There is a large number of the fleet was repainted and had the panto mounts removed. Some of the cars that were done first are now starting to look in need of some TLC again.
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Re: Rebuilding/ refurbishment of the Orange Line 1200s

Postby StefanW » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:46 pm

I couldn't find a more recent thread that was relevant, so forgive the bump on this one last-updated 2014.

The MBTA has a couple of bids open for Orange Line car component overhauls.

https://www.mbta.com/business_center/bi ... efault.asp
CAP 60-17 for brakes
CAP 64-17 for traction motors

I think the specifications documents are very interesting, with lots of technical details:
https://www.mbta.com/business_center/bidding_solicitations/pdf/CAP%2064%2017%20EEQA-878__12_Traction_Motor_Overhaul_Spec.pdf
https://www.mbta.com/business_center/bidding_solicitations/pdf/EEQA-879_Tread_Brake_Unit_Spec.pdf

Warning: they are fairly large PDFs.
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