Green Line single operators? POP?

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

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Postby N.Y. State Of Mind » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:31 pm

trolleyguy wrote:I fear that substantial and irrevocable changes may be coming to the Green Line. Why? The T has just gotten out from under a very unpleasant and unfortunate experience trying to comply with the Americans With Disabilities Act - namely, the Type 8 fiasco. Mounting financial pressures are giving rise to an even dicier development - the idea that elimination of staff on second and third cars in LRV trains will save the T more precious dollars. You can bet that the Amalgamated Transit Union is going to fight this proposal tooth and nail. This staff-reduction issue, coupled with shrinking budgets, the Type 8 debacle and an aging LRV fleet, is slowly but surely pressing the T's management harder and harder up against the wall.


The ATU will look like idiots fighting a proposal (POP) that has already been successfully implemented over virtually every LRT system for just over 25 years.

trolleyguy wrote:I can imagine what is going on behind the scenes in the minds of T management these days. Costs are rising, Green Line rolling stock is moving toward the end of its service life - and, if that weren't enough, the handicapped accessibility compliance requirement for the Green Line has STILL not yet been met. The pressure to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING, about all this is growing.


The Type 7s are almost 20. That's pretty much halfway through their service lives, although that depends on maintainence.

trolleyguy wrote:What I suspect may be sizzling around in the minds of T management right now is this: Why not seize this unfortunate moment and look upon it as a golden opportunity to convert the entire Green Line to bus rapid transit, a la the Silver Line? Rip up the tracks, pave the tunnels, string a second wire alongside the existing one and - voila! - there you have it - Bus Rapid Transit, the latest and greatest technological advancement in public transportation to come down the pike in over one-hundred years!! And the latest thing in bus rapid transit is the Guided Bus - perfect for dealing with tight spots in the Green Line tunnels. The Guided Bus is catching on big-time in Great Britain right now - the City of Cambridge, England, for one, is on the verge of building a Guided Bus rapid transit line along a disused railway.


Do you actually think that the T will actually go through with that? As screwed as up as they are, they will never do something as absurd, and as universally unpopular as turning the Green Line into a bus tunnel. Also, this guided bus you speak of may be cheap to build, but it's more expensive to maintain, and is less reliable. You might want to read about what happened with Nancy, France.

And, one more thing, Bus Rapid Transit, when presented as a substitute or replacement for rail, is really the biggest fraud in public transportation over the last century. Buses cannot compare to rail when it comes to speed, comfort, enviromental impact, attracting and retaining ridership, vehicle life, and cost efficiency, among other things.

trolleyguy wrote:Silver Line-type service into the subway would certainly solve the one-seat-ride issue on the Arborway Line, and probably put that matter to rest. Furthermore, the T's biggest argument in favor of Bus Rapid Transit these days is that it's flexible and cheaper - much cheaper - than buying new light rail vehicles.


That Arborway matter will not die as long as there are noisy, overcrowded buses on Centre and South Streets at Jamaica Plain. As expensive as purchasing light rail vehicles may be, one Type 7 LRT vehicle can carry the load of three articulated buses, and can last twice as long. Also, versatility is the weakness of a bus system, for people wouldn't be sure if a bus would be there the next day. Hell, the T would change the alignment of a bus route without a second's notice, and people wouldn't know about it until they ask the driver on why the bus is no longer going to the disontinued alignment, while the pernament nature of rail tracks will attract ridership and economic development.

trolleyguy wrote:It is no secret either that T Chairman Michael Mulhern is in love with Bus Rapid Transit - he thinks it is the latest and greatest game in town. And he's got the Federal Transit Administration on his side, too.


He thought wrong.

trolleyguy wrote:We should therefore not be too overly surprised should we hear within the next year or so an announcement from the T that it has given up on light rail in favor of Silver Line-type service for the Green Line, with the possible exception of the D - Riverside line, which would probably be reconverted to diesel-powered commuter rail.


I would rather see the D branch become the western end of the Blue Line.
N.Y. State Of Mind
 

Postby efin98 » Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:10 pm

It's never going to happen. The proposal is a bargaining chip, nothing more to it than that. Ain't gonna happen, despite what everyone here is saying. That comes straight from the horse's mouth, someone who actually knows about the proposal- which none of you can attest.
efin98
 

Postby apodino » Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:42 am

efin98 wrote:It's never going to happen. The proposal is a bargaining chip, nothing more to it than that. Ain't gonna happen, despite what everyone here is saying. That comes straight from the horse's mouth, someone who actually knows about the proposal- which none of you can attest.


I am a little bit confused here. I don't see what the T can gain by simply using this as a bargaining chip. What is crystal clear is that if they do go to single operator trains the payment method on the surface must also change. The only thing the T could possible gain is wage concessions from the Union, which I don't see happening anytime soon.

I would be very interested in hearing more about this proposal. Where is Mr. Dana when you need him.
Rich "Dino" Martin
A one time happy rider of Arborway and the old Washington St. El.
apodino
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:32 pm
Location: Appleton, WI

Postby efin98 » Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:24 am

apodino wrote:
efin98 wrote:It's never going to happen. The proposal is a bargaining chip, nothing more to it than that. Ain't gonna happen, despite what everyone here is saying. That comes straight from the horse's mouth, someone who actually knows about the proposal- which none of you can attest.


I am a little bit confused here. I don't see what the T can gain by simply using this as a bargaining chip.


Pay cuts across the board, no pay raises for a while, the laying off of a number of unneccessary workers to start...

What is crystal clear is that if they do go to single operator trains the payment method on the surface must also change. The only thing the T could possible gain is wage concessions from the Union, which I don't see happening anytime soon.


IF is the key word. They know they can not go to a single operator on the line despite the claims of those here. It's a labor arguement made public to garner support for the T against the labor union. Nothing more, nothing less. Just a headlines grabber to polarize riders and bring out the zealots to take the side of the T against the union. Most here fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

I would be very interested in hearing more about this proposal. Where is Mr. Dana when you need him.


He is on ne.transportation and has kept quiet due to fanatics like those here claiming things they have no idea about. What you may think needs to happen and what you think you know is going on is not what is actually going on. It's in actuallity something different than it appears.
efin98
 

Postby apodino » Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:02 am

efin98 wrote:
apodino wrote:
efin98 wrote:It's never going to happen. The proposal is a bargaining chip, nothing more to it than that. Ain't gonna happen, despite what everyone here is saying. That comes straight from the horse's mouth, someone who actually knows about the proposal- which none of you can attest.


I am a little bit confused here. I don't see what the T can gain by simply using this as a bargaining chip.


Pay cuts across the board, no pay raises for a while, the laying off of a number of unneccessary workers to start...

What is crystal clear is that if they do go to single operator trains the payment method on the surface must also change. The only thing the T could possible gain is wage concessions from the Union, which I don't see happening anytime soon.


IF is the key word. They know they can not go to a single operator on the line despite the claims of those here. It's a labor arguement made public to garner support for the T against the labor union. Nothing more, nothing less. Just a headlines grabber to polarize riders and bring out the zealots to take the side of the T against the union. Most here fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

I would be very interested in hearing more about this proposal. Where is Mr. Dana when you need him.


He is on ne.transportation and has kept quiet due to fanatics like those here claiming things they have no idea about. What you may think needs to happen and what you think you know is going on is not what is actually going on. It's in actuallity something different than it appears.


Thats kinda sad, because this forum needs those types of people to clear up some things that we might not know but are interested in, so that people on here don't make any statements they might not know anything about. I don't claim to know everything and I probably don't.

That having been said, I never said that I believe that the T would actually do this. I have been skeptical just like everyone else on here. But the thing that doesn't make sense to me if they want the public to be against the labor unions, I think this is the wrong way to go about it, because when the T removed the guards from the Blue Line, most of the public sided with the union and said they should stay, with many riders threatening to boycott the Blue Line because they no longer felt safe without the guard.

And if I am T management, I would think removing guards from the Red and Orange Lines would be much less of a hastle than the Green Line operators. Again, I don't know all the facts here or anything, but as an outsider, this is what I am seeing.

BTW, I don't know how to access ne.transportation, and I have avoided it because I have heard its nothing but flame wars, which this site for the most part isn't. Can anyone email me info off of the thread on this?
Rich "Dino" Martin
A one time happy rider of Arborway and the old Washington St. El.
apodino
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:32 pm
Location: Appleton, WI

Postby BC Eagle » Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:06 pm

If it's been done in almost every other city in the country that utilizes light rail, I don't understand why the T knows "they can not go to a single operator on the line." Furthermore, if this truly is an empty ploy on behalf of the T, then I am disappointed. First, because I believe this would improve service on the Green Line. Second, this would further increase my disenchantment with T management.
BC Eagle
 

Postby efin98 » Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:52 pm

BC Eagle wrote:If it's been done in almost every other city in the country that utilizes light rail, I don't understand why the T knows "they can not go to a single operator on the line."


Vollume of passengers. None of the other light rail lines reach the amount of traffic the T gets, and those that do do not have proof of payment systems like the small systems.

Furthermore, if this truly is an empty ploy on behalf of the T, then I am disappointed. First, because I believe this would improve service on the Green Line. Second, this would further increase my disenchantment with T management.


Not an empty ploy, as the ones the union pulls is much worse- except you never hear about those because the T doesn't leak that stuff, the union on the other hand...
efin98
 

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