Sending MARC to WIlmington

Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: Robert Paniagua, therock

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:49 pm

Well, here's an old chestnut revived!

DELAWARE ONLINE

Brief, fair-use quote:

MARC trains could come to Delaware

Delaware and Maryland transit officials are discussing the possibility of extending MARC, Maryland’s commuter rail line – which now runs from Washington D.C. to Perryville, Maryland – as far north as Wilmington.

DART CEO John Sisson said that he will talk with Maryland Transit Administration officials next week and the service could begin as early as 2018, after the reconstruction of the Newark train station.

That project, which will increase train capacity at the station, will also allow additional SEPTA trains to travel to Newark from Philadelphia, Sisson said.

“We’re still in that planning process,” Sisson said. “Do you run a commuter rail service from Philadelphia to Baltimore, do you run Wilmington to Baltimore, or do you run Newark to Baltimore?”
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator
Jeff Smith
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7444
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby ThirdRail7 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:02 am

They've been discussing this for the better part of quarter century I've been around. Financing a platform at a modified station is cool but who is putting up the money to satisfy Amtrak's demands for track improvements to allow the trains to run between Prince and Iron? That is the big ticket item.
I want my road foreman!
ThirdRail7
 
Posts: 3968
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:07 pm

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby MattW » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:00 pm

Interesting plan, and would certainly close one of the last gaps of commuter rail on the NEC (Westerly to New London isn't filled in yet right?). But I'm not sure Amtrak would allow MARC with 90mph diesels to do this over this stretch. It's harder to shut down MARC on existing service, but I could easily see Amtrak insisting on electric locomotives that could "keep their slot" especially with the few segments of double track still left there that won't be fixed prior to the wanted start of service. At cruise, a 90mph train would take up just over one and a third slots on the line. But with station stops, and the lower acceleration, how many more slots would a MARC take? 2? Unless a stop was added at Elkton, a MARC train would pretty much stay with the flow of traffic from Perryville to Newark, or Wilmington (depending on stopping pattern), so the top speed and accelerating in and out of the speed restrictions are really the only concerns, and there, electric locomotives win.
MattW
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 8:00 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (ATL)

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby sammy2009 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:35 pm

I think MARC would have to really consider getting some Electric Locomotives to keep their schedule.....I can see AMTRAK having a fit esp.between that stretch where it is only two tracks....AMTRAK can handle one of their own having a breakdown but not another transit agency....How much is the real demand ? Will Delaware pay for all of it or will Maryland put some $$$ in the deposit book ?
sammy2009
 
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:16 am

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby ExCon90 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:15 pm

I believe ThirdRail7's post above referred to adding a third track from PRINCE to IRON; I think Amtrak would insist on that before allowing any MARC trains in that territory, particularly with a stop at Elkton. The whole project would then have to get in the queue for available funds, unless Maryland wants to step up. Recent statements by the governor about not extending the Red Line in Baltimore seem to make that unlikely.
ExCon90
 
Posts: 3462
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:22 pm

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby strench707 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:26 pm

That double track is already a menace.

They had it single tracked the other night when I was riding 2165 down. We stopped at BACON to wait on a regional and when we passed PRINCE there was a NB LD Train stopped on Track 2 with a regional nosed in stopped about 5 car lengths behind it.

Obviously not normal practice but with the event of an OOS main on that stretch during daylight hours already causing that much congestion, I couldn't imagine what throwing commuter trains into the mix would do.


Davis
User avatar
strench707
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:28 am

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby gprimr1 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:01 pm

From what I've read, Amtrak has pretty much said that it's a non-starter without a third track.

I'm curious what the bennefit would be to Maryland? Considering Delaware has no sales tax and no income tax, and Maryland has both an income and sales tax, I can't see people wanting to live in Maryland and commute to Wilimgton. Perhaps some people would live in Delaware and commute to Maryland, I'm not sure if the job market is large enough, but I'd be open to some studies on that.

I think Maryland has bigger transport issues to address.
-Greg Primrose
Moderator: General Discussion: High Speed Rail Amtrak
"I'm leaving on a jet train, don't know when I'll be back again. Bags are packed and there ready to go."
Ave Atque Vale
User avatar
gprimr1
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:39 pm
Location: Towson Maryland

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby skm » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:10 am

gprimr1 wrote:
I'm curious what the bennefit would be to Maryland? Considering Delaware has no sales tax and no income tax, and Maryland has both an income and sales tax, I can't see people wanting to live in Maryland and commute to Wilimgton. Perhaps some people would live in Delaware and commute to Maryland, I'm not sure if the job market is large enough, but I'd be open to some studies on that.



Delaware has a personal income tax.
skm
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:02 am

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby realtype » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:22 am

gprimr1 wrote:From what I've read, Amtrak has pretty much said that it's a non-starter without a third track.

I'm curious what the bennefit would be to Maryland? Considering Delaware has no sales tax and no income tax, and Maryland has both an income and sales tax, I can't see people wanting to live in Maryland and commute to Wilimgton. Perhaps some people would live in Delaware and commute to Maryland, I'm not sure if the job market is large enough, but I'd be open to some studies on that.

I think Maryland has bigger transport issues to address.


I'm sure most riders would work in DC (or Baltimore). You'd be surprised at how far DC workers are willing to commute. A lot of people take the Brunswick Line from WV, and even though Newark is a bit further the higher track speed on the Penn Line (Cap. Ltd. Martinsburg-WAS 2hrs4min vs NE Regional Newark-WAS 1hr31min) would make it a quicker trip. I'd also imagine that any extension to DE would also include service to Elkton after renovation of the existing station.
User avatar
realtype
 
Posts: 1498
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Germantown, MD

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby mtuandrew » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:21 pm

realtype wrote:You'd be surprised at how far DC workers are willing to commute.

At least one guy made a habit of it before his last promotion. :wink:

I'd be looking more to the people who live in Baltimore and work in Wilmington or vice versa, like University of Delaware staff and Dupont employees. If you're going all the way from Delaware to DC (or Baltimore to Philly), either you drive/carpool or you take Amtrak.
User avatar
mtuandrew
 
Posts: 4082
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 am
Location: the Manassas Gap Independent Line

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby STrRedWolf » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:53 pm

Any place where it's only two tracks wide is basically a bone of contention for any added service anywhere... and lets face it, the entire NEC needs to be 4-tracked DC to Boston. How many places in Maryland are there that's only two tracks? DC to CARROL, BRIDGE to CHARLES, GUNPOW to MAGNOLIA, WOOD to BUSH, GRACE to PERRY, and PRINCE to BACON -- and I only knew of two for sure before I rechecked Wikimapia.

That said, how many tracks with platforms are there at Wilmington? Two? Maybe three? MARC may be swapping equipment space with SEPTA until there's a fourth track to park it long-term.

Plus, if you look at the station at Elkton... yeah, you need a better station than a wood shack now.
I ride the (MTA Maryland) Penn Line (between Odenton and Baltimore). I used to work for MTA Maryland's IT department, and out of professional courtesy my responses may be limited. Wikimapia is wonderful (for track/interlocking locations)!
User avatar
STrRedWolf
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby ExCon90 » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:25 pm

There are 3 tracks at Wilmington now, and no room for more. Tracks 1 and 3 have long side platforms; 2 shares the high-level center platform with 3. Regionals and Acelas use 2 and 3, with 1 used mainly by SEPTA locals, many of which terminate and turn in the station. The double track between the station and HOLLY is a real choke point; to reach Track 1, a southbound SEPTA has to cross over at LANDLITH and run "wrong line" on 2 in order to reach 1, sometimes requiring a wait on 4 at HOLLY, since it can't be held at LANDLITH. A crossover enabling a southward move from 3 to 2 and then to 1 immediately north of the station would ease this, but they've lived without it since about 1968. I would say there's absolutely no way to deal with originating/terminating MARC trains at Wilmington, and no room to make provision for it.
ExCon90
 
Posts: 3462
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:22 pm

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby STrRedWolf » Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:50 pm

Basically, going at it from ether side, there's no way to do it without a heavy lift. You essentially have to build four tracks and a new Wilmington station off the Norfolk Southern tracks, and everyone isn't going to be happy about that.
I ride the (MTA Maryland) Penn Line (between Odenton and Baltimore). I used to work for MTA Maryland's IT department, and out of professional courtesy my responses may be limited. Wikimapia is wonderful (for track/interlocking locations)!
User avatar
STrRedWolf
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby The EGE » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:28 pm

There's a lot of ROW width north and south of the station outside the downtown area, back from when it used to be flush with industrial sidings. I can't believe that with well-thought-out interlocking designs and maybe dedicated sidings, that a few additional MARC trains a day would be that big of a problem.

Elkton actually has a nice station building left. You'd have to join forces with the county health department (which owns adjacent parking lots) to build a parking structure, but it's a great location - close to the downtown, and also US 40 and I-95.

Image
User avatar
The EGE
 
Posts: 2460
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:16 pm
Location: Waiting for the N Judah

Re: Sending MARC to WIlmington

Postby MCL1981 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:47 am

Completely re-engineering the railroad all the way to Wilmington, building new stations, building new parking. Tens if not hundreds of millions of tax dollars in construction. Years of delayed trains due to construction. More millions for additional rolling stock and locos. For what?? There is no way there are enough people trying to commute to/from Wilmington to even remotely justify such a boondoggle.
MCL1981
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:23 am

PreviousNext

Return to DC - Maryland - Virginia Area Passenger Rail: MTA(MARC), VRE, WMATA(Metro)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests