All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: Robert Paniagua, therock, mtuandrew

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby farecard » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:56 pm

The watts are going somewhere.....

I wonder what performance specs are in the contract.

[On aircraft, the maker promises the buyer what the finished aircraft will do. The MD-11 infamously fell far short on range and MTOW; Boeing ended up paying for that each flight until the airlines pulled them from passenger service. (They ended up mostly with FedEx where volume mattered more than pounds.)]

If there's similar requirements in the 7000 contact........
User avatar
farecard
 
Posts: 707
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:40 am

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby MCL1981 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:25 pm

I'm not even sure who the blame belongs with on this. Does the design and contract call for a specific range of power consumption? Did the engineering design meet that specification? Was it tested after being built to verify the specification? And literally not a single person with a functioning brainstem at WMATA and/or Kawasaki noticed the utter failure? Or was all of that just skipped? Via con dios, send us trains? It is simply beyond comprehension that even an organization as incompetent as WMATA could accidentally miss this little detail.

Or is 25% more power consumption approximately what the design, engineering, contracts, and expectations were? In that case, did WMATA just kind of forget that their traction power systems are about to get completely overloaded as these trains being to saturate the system? If this is the case, it is still beyond comprehension even for the low mental standards of WMATA. Present company not withstanding of course.
MCL1981
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:23 am

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby Chris Brown » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:21 pm

I know WMATA was asking for power upgrades to allow them to run 100% 8-car trains. Maybe this is their sneaky way for forcing the power upgrades?

Still 25% is absurd. Where is that power going? I thought the 7K cars had less horsepower than earlier models. The added weight is not enough to add 25% either.
Chris Brown
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:16 am

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby JackRussell » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:45 pm

MCL1981 wrote:I'm not even sure who the blame belongs with on this. Does the design and contract call for a specific range of power consumption? Did the engineering design meet that specification? Was it tested after being built to verify the specification? And literally not a single person with a functioning brainstem at WMATA and/or Kawasaki noticed the utter failure? Or was all of that just skipped? Via con dios, send us trains? It is simply beyond comprehension that even an organization as incompetent as WMATA could accidentally miss this little detail.


I have this vague recollection that there was a pdf out there at one time that had the full specs of the 7000 series. I have no recollection if I still have it or not - for all I know one can still find it with the right Google-fu. I might still have it on my PC downstairs. But that would tell us what information was given to Kawasaki at the time the contract went out.
JackRussell
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby JackRussell » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:01 pm

So I guess these things have no form of regenerative braking. I did see that they have recently studied what the power savings would be if they had regenerative braking:

https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.d ... ._0086.pdf

I had first thought that the increased railcar weight would explain the difference, but the railcars are only about 10% heavier.
JackRussell
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby srepetsk » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:39 pm

The trains do have regenerative braking (there are two types of braking modes, friction and dynamic). The FTA study you link to looked into the possibilities of what might happen if WMATA were able to store that energy dispersed by the trains while braking.
srepetsk
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 12:57 am

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby JDC » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:49 am

Just to keep track of these things, this past week I saw cars 7444 and 7445 (or it might have been 445 and 446...it's been several days now).
Living in Alexandria, Fairfax County; Working at Half & L
User avatar
JDC
 
Posts: 990
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:20 am
Location: Fairfax County, VA

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby Chris Brown » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:46 pm

JDC wrote:Just to keep track of these things, this past week I saw cars 7444 and 7445 (or it might have been 445 and 446...it's been several days now).


In another thread, someone mentioned that car #7528 might be the last. Apparently the relationship between Kawasaki and WMATA has gone off the rails (no pun intended) and WMATA is considering canceling the contract option for the extra 220 fleet expansion cars. These might instead be added to the 8K series order.

Anyone know what happened? Seems like the cars are being delivered very quickly now so why is WMATA so salty on Kawasaki?
Chris Brown
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:16 am

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby Sand Box John » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:05 pm

"Chris Brown"
Anyone know what happened? Seems like the cars are being delivered very quickly now so why is WMATA so salty on Kawasaki?


This might be just the tip of the iceberg on why the relationship between WMATA and Kawasaki is souring.

Metro’s new cars falling short of requirements
Max Smith
0107 11 23 2017
WTOP 103.5 FM
John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.
User avatar
Sand Box John
 
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:55 pm
Location: Hebron Maryland

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby Head-end View » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:21 pm

So is the problem thought to be that Kawasaki is not as good a builder as they used to be, OR that WMATA's spec's and requirements were not well thought out, OR that today's train car is such an electric and electronic computer nightmare to design and build that these kinds of glitches are going to happen no matter what company builds the car, or a mix of some or all-of-the-above? :(
Head-end View
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:00 pm
Location: The second row on a SEPTA Silverliner V

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby Chris Brown » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:51 pm

Head-end View wrote:So is the problem thought to be that Kawasaki is not as good a builder as they used to be, OR that WMATA's spec's and requirements were not well thought out, OR that today's train car is such an electric and electronic computer nightmare to design and build that these kinds of glitches are going to happen no matter what company builds the car, or a mix of some or all-of-the-above? :(


I suspect there might of been less issues if the 7k series was just an updated version of the older designs. Creating a completely new design is usually asking for trouble when it comes to complex machinery. It takes a while to work out all the bugs. And it looks like WMATA is looking to redesign the cars again for the 8k series.

Maybe WMATA will go with Bombardier as the next manufacturer. They have provided quality product for Chicago and NYC over the years.
Chris Brown
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:16 am

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby Head-end View » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:51 pm

Well Chris, according to various people on these boards, recent Bombardier customers are having serious problems too, worse than Kawasaki.
Head-end View
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:00 pm
Location: The second row on a SEPTA Silverliner V

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby Backshophoss » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:58 pm

BBD was told to take a hike,NOT allowed to bid on the next NYCTA car order,after warranty issues and LATE delivery issues on the R179's
and M-7's to LIRR and MN.
Backshophoss
 
Posts: 4825
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby Chris Brown » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:45 pm

Wow guys.. seems like quality is going down the toilet lately with every manufacturer. But I'm not that surprised when you consider the environment.

My guess is these problems are the result of Value Engineering. These agencies (MTA, WMATA, etc) usually go for the lowest bidder. This forces manufacturers to Value Engineer in order to be price competitive. This is going on pretty much across the board with all products that go through competitive bidding from office buildings to office chairs.

Inflation makes it impossible to maintain quality without raising prices unless you find some creative ways around it which is not always possible. Value Engineering is the easiest short cut. You basically find ways to cut cost such as using cheaper materials or less robust components. It can be as small as using a plastic screw instead of a metal one. When the product is brand new you won't notice a different in performance, but over time the Value Engineered components might fail much earlier.
Chris Brown
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:16 am

Re: All Things WMATA 7000 Series

Postby Head-end View » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:14 pm

Not sure about Metro-North, but LIRR is pretty satisfied with their Bombardier M-7's (even if I'm not for obvious reasons, LOL) even if there were late deliveries. They have been reasonably trouble free as far as I know.
Head-end View
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:00 pm
Location: The second row on a SEPTA Silverliner V

PreviousNext

Return to DC - Maryland - Virginia Area Passenger Rail: MTA(MARC), VRE, WMATA(Metro)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests