Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

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Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby davinp » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:04 am

According to Thursday's Post article about the 4000 series, after Metro finishes retiring the 1000 and 4000 series this year, they will next start retiring the 5000 series. This probably won't begin until 2018.

Metro bought the 5000 series from CAF in the year 2000 to add to the fleet. However, they've been so problematic, that instead of giving them a mid-life overhaul, they've decided to retire them early.
Metro has had problems with them since they were new. You could call them lemons. Maybe it was a mistake to buy them from a Spanish company who had never built railcars for an american transit agency before. Plus Metro did not take advantage of the new technology - automatic station stop announcements (and yes they existed in 2000 because MARC and VRE had them on new Kawasaki railcars back then)

This means 600 cars will be replaced by the 7000 series: 300 1K cars, 100 4K cars and 200 5K cars. This about half the fleet.

Did you like the 500 series cars?
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby STrRedWolf » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:41 am

davinp wrote:According to Thursday's Post article about the 4000 series, after Metro finishes retiring the 1000 and 4000 series this year, they will next start retiring the 5000 series. This probably won't begin until 2018.

Metro bought the 5000 series from CAF in the year 2000 to add to the fleet. However, they've been so problematic, that instead of giving them a mid-life overhaul, they've decided to retire them early.
Metro has had problems with them since they were new. You could call them lemons. Maybe it was a mistake to buy them from a Spanish company who had never built railcars for an american transit agency before. Plus Metro did not take advantage of the new technology - automatic station stop announcements (and yes they existed in 2000 because MARC and VRE had them on new Kawasaki railcars back then)

This means 600 cars will be replaced by the 7000 series: 300 1K cars, 100 4K cars and 200 5K cars. This about half the fleet.


Oooohkay, and no references. Let's fix that, shall we?

I found your article. It's actually posted on Wednesday (probably in print on Thursday): https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

Today, because of their individual safety concerns, the 1000- and 4000-series models are the only ones condemned to be bellied between more reliable cars.

Now, the agency aims to remove all 1000- and 4000-series cars from passenger service by the end of 2017, before moving on to the 5000-series models, which number about 200 and will be replaced by the 7000-series.

Eventually, Metro plans to replace more than half the fleet with the new 7000s, manufactured by Kawasaki. The effect of retiring the old models is unlikely to be felt by riders, though — Metro is receiving about 20 of the new cars per month and getting rid of 16 to 19 of the older models. By late last year, 4000-series cars still in service made up about 7 percent of the 1,212-car passenger fleet.


Huh, no reason why they want to get rid of the 5000's. But if we dig a bit more... June 6th, 2015:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

Metro said it intends to use the final batch of 7K cars to replace the 197 cars of the 5000 series, or 5Ks, which were manufactured in the early 2000s. A subway car is built to last about 40 years, with a midlife overhaul. In about five years, the 5Ks would be due for overhauls, costing nearly $200 million, Metro said. To avoid that expense and to upgrade rail service, the agency wants to scrap the 5Ks many years before their time.


It's not "They're junk" but more "Ugh, we gotta upgrade the 5K's... wait, we can save that money to buy more 7K's! Lets scrap those oldies!"
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby Chris Brown » Fri May 19, 2017 5:45 pm

I like the sounds the 5k's make more than the 2-3k and 6k. But that's about it. They kind of suck otherwise.
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby tommyboy6181 » Mon May 29, 2017 4:08 pm

STrRedWolf wrote:
davinp wrote:According to Thursday's Post article about the 4000 series, after Metro finishes retiring the 1000 and 4000 series this year, they will next start retiring the 5000 series. This probably won't begin until 2018.

Metro bought the 5000 series from CAF in the year 2000 to add to the fleet. However, they've been so problematic, that instead of giving them a mid-life overhaul, they've decided to retire them early.
Metro has had problems with them since they were new. You could call them lemons. Maybe it was a mistake to buy them from a Spanish company who had never built railcars for an american transit agency before. Plus Metro did not take advantage of the new technology - automatic station stop announcements (and yes they existed in 2000 because MARC and VRE had them on new Kawasaki railcars back then)

This means 600 cars will be replaced by the 7000 series: 300 1K cars, 100 4K cars and 200 5K cars. This about half the fleet.


Oooohkay, and no references. Let's fix that, shall we?

I found your article. It's actually posted on Wednesday (probably in print on Thursday): https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

Today, because of their individual safety concerns, the 1000- and 4000-series models are the only ones condemned to be bellied between more reliable cars.

Now, the agency aims to remove all 1000- and 4000-series cars from passenger service by the end of 2017, before moving on to the 5000-series models, which number about 200 and will be replaced by the 7000-series.

Eventually, Metro plans to replace more than half the fleet with the new 7000s, manufactured by Kawasaki. The effect of retiring the old models is unlikely to be felt by riders, though — Metro is receiving about 20 of the new cars per month and getting rid of 16 to 19 of the older models. By late last year, 4000-series cars still in service made up about 7 percent of the 1,212-car passenger fleet.


Huh, no reason why they want to get rid of the 5000's. But if we dig a bit more... June 6th, 2015:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

Metro said it intends to use the final batch of 7K cars to replace the 197 cars of the 5000 series, or 5Ks, which were manufactured in the early 2000s. A subway car is built to last about 40 years, with a midlife overhaul. In about five years, the 5Ks would be due for overhauls, costing nearly $200 million, Metro said. To avoid that expense and to upgrade rail service, the agency wants to scrap the 5Ks many years before their time.


It's not "They're junk" but more "Ugh, we gotta upgrade the 5K's... wait, we can save that money to buy more 7K's! Lets scrap those oldies!"


Yet the Washington Post miscounted the number of 5000 series cars that were built. There were 192 built at that time, with a few OOS or scrapped due to accidents or derailments.
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby jayo » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:37 pm

Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby Chris Brown » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:04 am

jayo wrote:Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


Rail cars are not universal like power outlets where one size fits all. They are usually built specifically for the system they run on. WMATA cars would not work in Philly and vice versa. Different platform heights for one.
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby andrewjw » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:58 am

Chris Brown wrote:
jayo wrote:Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


Rail cars are not universal like power outlets where one size fits all. They are usually built specifically for the system they run on. WMATA cars would not work in Philly and vice versa. Different platform heights for one.


Platform heights would probably be the biggest difference. Another incompatibility would be that the broad street line uses top contact 600V DC, whereas WMATA uses 750V DC top contact.

Some cross-system sales have happened, for instance several different models of Chicago el and interurban equipment have run on the NHSL (ex-P&W interurban) line. However, I doubt anywhere would be interested in the 5000s, given that WMATA, which is probably the most familiar with their systems, feels that it would be cheaper to buy new cars than repair the old.
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby Sand Box John » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:07 pm

"jayo"
Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


WMATA is scraping them for the same reason they are scraping the 4k cars, it would cost roughly the same to rehabilitate and end having something inferior to something new.

The only transit property that has a load gauge similar to WMATA is MARTA. Cab signaling would not be compatible because MARTA coded track circuits use different frequencies.
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby jayo » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:08 pm

Sand Box John wrote:"jayo"
Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


WMATA is scraping them for the same reason they are scraping the 4k cars, it would cost roughly the same to rehabilitate and end having something inferior to something new.

The only transit property that has a load gauge similar to WMATA is MARTA. Cab signaling would not be compatible because MARTA coded track circuits use different frequencies.


It wouldn't be inferior if rehabbed, it would be on par with something new! Of course, I doubt MARTA would want or need them, they have more than enough new or rehabbed cars for their system!
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby Chris Brown » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:07 pm

jayo wrote:
Sand Box John wrote:"jayo"
Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


WMATA is scraping them for the same reason they are scraping the 4k cars, it would cost roughly the same to rehabilitate and end having something inferior to something new.

The only transit property that has a load gauge similar to WMATA is MARTA. Cab signaling would not be compatible because MARTA coded track circuits use different frequencies.


It wouldn't be inferior if rehabbed, it would be on par with something new! Of course, I doubt MARTA would want or need them, they have more than enough new or rehabbed cars for their system!


But if you're going to pay the same price.. doesn't it make more sense just to get something new that will last longer? New rail cars have a 40 year lifespan. A rehab would only give you another 20 years of life. Why pay the same price for 20 years when you can get 40 years?
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Re: Metro's 5000 series - 1 year left?

Postby tommyboy6181 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:50 pm

jayo wrote:
Sand Box John wrote:"jayo"
Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


WMATA is scraping them for the same reason they are scraping the 4k cars, it would cost roughly the same to rehabilitate and end having something inferior to something new.

The only transit property that has a load gauge similar to WMATA is MARTA. Cab signaling would not be compatible because MARTA coded track circuits use different frequencies.


It wouldn't be inferior if rehabbed, it would be on par with something new! Of course, I doubt MARTA would want or need them, they have more than enough new or rehabbed cars for their system!


The trucks would not be compatible with MARTA either since WMATA uses 28" wheels compared to 32". Also, MARTA is looking to replace their entire fleet with 1 type of railcar now that their original cars are getting closer to reaching their end of life. Their Breda cars would be replaced as part of that plan instead of rebuilt.
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