Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: Robert Paniagua, therock

Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby Arlington » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:41 am

In other threads (mods can combine) we have covered:
- MARC Brunswick can't be connected to VRE without fouling the whole of WUT.
- VRE is low platform but MARC Penn is high
- MARC can't get to L'Enfant due to track and platform shortage
- MARC can't cross the Long Bridge due to slot constraints

...but that leaves VRE-MARC Camden...or at least MARC Camden as far as College Park.

College Park:
- Is low platform
- Has space if you needed to mix low VRE and (future) MARC high level platform ops (even end-to-end)
- Already has the Green Line
- Will have the Purple Line by 2022
- Is on the Ivy City side of things, simplifying deadhead moves


- Could also serve existing MARC station in the Riverdale/Hyattsville area (if MD funded)
- Could support a new stop in the Ivy City - Langdon area (if DC funded)

Thoughts? Would it be in Maryland's interest to pay to have it serve all low platforms, all the way to Camden Sta Baltimore?
It also would widen the choice set when shopping for larger, long-term layover capacity.
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3266
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby STrRedWolf » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:29 pm

Well... you know, this is why I love Wikimapia.

There's no interlocking immediately north of College Park until you pass Greenbelt (which is a logical place to turn a train, plus there is one low-level platform there) and go almost all the way to Muirkurk, where the Ammendale interlocking is.

South of College Park, you got JD and RIVERDALE PARK interlocks... south of Riverdale station. I think if you want to turn trains properly, you need another rail and an interlocking or two.

To get there, I think you'll foul Penn line traffic regularly as well, and for added service, CSX is mandating another rail line all the way up.

Not going to happen anytime soon.
I ride the (MTA Maryland) Penn Line (between Odenton and Baltimore). I used to work for MTA Maryland's IT department, and out of professional courtesy my responses may be limited. Wikimapia is wonderful (for track/interlocking locations)!
User avatar
STrRedWolf
 
Posts: 680
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby MCL1981 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:31 am

No matter how you slice the cake, the amount of frosting doesn't change. The rail infrastructure is simply full in all respects. There is no magic slot somewhere that nobody thought of until now. The only way you're going to get more rail transit capacity is with more rail, and all the odds and ends that go with it. And you're not getting that without a LOT of money, and a LOT of eminent domain property takeovers. Pretty much the same thing that's required to make the highways wide enough to not be jammed every day. No politician that wants to be re-elected will do it.
MCL1981
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:23 am

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby Arlington » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:52 am

Turning at the Greenbelt low seems like it would work.

ROW not wide enough for a 3rd track Or passing siding someplace between Ivy City and CP?

My hypothesis is also that lVRE ayover space may be cheaper out Greenbelt-way than at Ivy City.
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3266
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby STrRedWolf » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:40 pm

Not really. You're contending with another government agency there (Department of Agriculture) for the land on one side and WMATA's Greenbelt yard on another. Once past the yard, you probably might as well build a yard right after Muirkurk.
I ride the (MTA Maryland) Penn Line (between Odenton and Baltimore). I used to work for MTA Maryland's IT department, and out of professional courtesy my responses may be limited. Wikimapia is wonderful (for track/interlocking locations)!
User avatar
STrRedWolf
 
Posts: 680
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby Arlington » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:44 pm

STrRedWolf wrote:Once past the yard, you probably might as well build a yard right after Muirkurk.

Hmm. Is MD-200 a good place for a VA commuter train to terminate?
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3266
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby STrRedWolf » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:29 pm

Maybe if a yard can be put there. But as said above, capacity is at a premium and more commuter trains on that CSX line means CSX wants more rail laid down.
I ride the (MTA Maryland) Penn Line (between Odenton and Baltimore). I used to work for MTA Maryland's IT department, and out of professional courtesy my responses may be limited. Wikimapia is wonderful (for track/interlocking locations)!
User avatar
STrRedWolf
 
Posts: 680
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby scratchy » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:05 pm

STrRedWolf wrote:Well... you know, this is why I love Wikimapia.

There's no interlocking immediately north of College Park until you pass Greenbelt (which is a logical place to turn a train, plus there is one low-level platform there) and go almost all the way to Muirkurk, where the Ammendale interlocking is.

South of College Park, you got JD and RIVERDALE PARK interlocks... south of Riverdale station. I think if you want to turn trains properly, you need another rail and an interlocking or two.

To get there, I think you'll foul Penn line traffic regularly as well, and for added service, CSX is mandating another rail line all the way up.

Not going to happen anytime soon.


Greenbelt is the perfect location to turn trains around. I'm not sure there are enough slots for additional traffic. I am wondering if the College Park station would get built into more than a whistle stop when the purple line goes through. There is room for additional tracks, and platforms. I'd assume another interlock could go in north or south of it.
scratchy
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:32 pm

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby MCL1981 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:48 pm

If the new FBI HQ is built in Greenbelt or Springfield, the potential customers for run through service will likely increase. Either VRE continuing to Greenbelt, or MARC continuing to Springfield. But again, never going to happen without expanding the infrastructure and rails first.
MCL1981
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:23 am

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby scratchy » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:48 pm

Granted, FBI money could pay for that. To keep all those cars from clogging the bridges across the Potomac.
scratchy
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:32 pm

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby MCL1981 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:22 pm

What FBI money? The FBI is struggling to get funding for their new HQ to begin with. And what they're being allowed to build is going to be too small in the first place because they can't get enough money or space to build bigger. So getting a few extra billion to expand the rail infrastructure of Maryland, DC, and Virginia is not likely.
MCL1981
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:23 am

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby Arlington » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:22 am

How much would a package like this cost:
+3rd rail Ivy City to Greenbelt nside existing fences, I'd say) (7 miles @ $5m mile = $35m)
+Crossovers at both ends ($5m each?,)
+Redo some crossings (or is that in the $5m/mile)
+New low level platform at CP ($10m)

Call that $60m?

That feels like - $100m (or less), not "billions"
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3266
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby MCL1981 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:03 am

I'm thinking more than just that. I was factoring in adding track through to VA too
MCL1981
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:23 am

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby STrRedWolf » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:07 am

Arlington wrote:How much would a package like this cost:
+3rd rail Ivy City to Greenbelt nside existing fences, I'd say) (7 miles @ $5m mile = $35m)
+Crossovers at both ends ($5m each?,)
+Redo some crossings (or is that in the $5m/mile)
+New low level platform at CP ($10m)

Call that $60m?

That feels like - $100m (or less), not "billions"


I think the road crossings (ether at grade level or on bridges/tunnels) will add more cost (and probably will double the bill).

Don't forget, you got to rework some interlockings: F Tower to span all four tracks, JD to handle the third rail line, RIVERDALE PARK to handle the third rail and do full back/forward switching, and GREENBELT for the crossovers mentioned above and the third rail line.

Both College Park and Riverdale stations will need to be redone: Riverdale just needs one side moved (at the cost of some parking), College Park will need to be completely redesigned (hint: Move it a bit north-east on top of the Metrorail tunnel, swapping the side where it is on in relation to the crossover, and stretch it to cover 1.5 car-lengths).

I'm thinking at least $250 mil, and expect just that to double because of how government likes to drag their feet with paperwork.
I ride the (MTA Maryland) Penn Line (between Odenton and Baltimore). I used to work for MTA Maryland's IT department, and out of professional courtesy my responses may be limited. Wikimapia is wonderful (for track/interlocking locations)!
User avatar
STrRedWolf
 
Posts: 680
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Limited Run-Through: VRE to College Park Green&Purple

Postby Robert Paniagua » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:19 pm

John_Perkowski wrote:Admin note: Briefly closed while the Moderators sort out a comment or two...


Just killed the post in question. Please everyone, there's no politics allowed here. John ok to reopen thread? PM me
~Robert Paniagua
Moderator: WMATA :: General Railroad Operations
User avatar
Robert Paniagua
 
Posts: 4418
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:11 am
Location: Weymouth, MA 02188

Next

Return to DC - Maryland - Virginia Area Passenger Rail: MTA(MARC), VRE, WMATA(Metro)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests