WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby Sand Box John » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:53 pm

"STrRedWolf"
Think hexadecimal with those CV strips (mind the computer programmer). The value there is 0x19, aka decimal 25, and the parity bit is set.

Unfortunately, this one will only go to 127 positions, because it's missing CV80.


You just went over my head because that kind of stuff is above my pay grade. Based on what's in the footer of your posts I am confident that you know what you are talking about.
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby STrRedWolf » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:45 pm

Sand Box John wrote:"STrRedWolf"
Think hexadecimal with those CV strips (mind the computer programmer). The value there is 0x19, aka decimal 25, and the parity bit is set.

Unfortunately, this one will only go to 127 positions, because it's missing CV80.


You just went over my head because that kind of stuff is above my pay grade. Based on what's in the footer of your posts I am confident that you know what you are talking about.


Okay, let me see if I can explain. Take this image as a reference:
Image

Now each CV strip can be white, or black. On or off. Set or unset. 1 or 0. Binary, or base two, numbers. Each position is just a digit in a binary number, and the CV # in the image (1,2,4,8,10,20,40) means what that digit means... but there's a catch. "10" here isn't base-10 "10". If CV 1,2,4, and 8 were all white, you'd get 15 in decimal. If these were not binary digits, you could also do 15 with CV 10, 4, and 1... and that's a waste of positions you could have. Think about it, is the roll 79 positions long or is it 127 positions long?

No, these CV numbers are not decimal (base 10). They're hexadecimal (base 16). And the digits 0-9 are joined by A-F for values 10 through 15. So the values in decimal here are 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64. Easy for a low-power computer to read off, combine, say "Oh hey! I'm at position 25!" Then when you tap in a new roll number, it would go "Okay, I'm at 25" go forward one "Okay, I'm at 26... oh, he tapped 11, I need to reverse!" Remember, if they had computers to handle the rollers, it would be very slow, low-power chips that needed to read pins from the sensors and spin the stepper motors. (A modern version would be controlled by an Arduino Mega 2560 with light sensors catching the pulse of LED lights shining through the paper)
I ride the (MTA Maryland) Penn Line (between Odenton and Baltimore). I used to work for MTA Maryland's IT department, and out of professional courtesy my responses may be limited. Wikimapia is wonderful (for track/interlocking locations)!
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby smallfire85 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:40 pm

Sand Box John wrote:LIke this?;
Image

Strips are identifies as thus?;
Image


That looks correct.

Sand Box John wrote:I noticed that the combination of CV strips can only produce sums up to 79. I will assume a destination code above that will set the roll to No Passengers by default.


From what I've read, the later signboxes were only made to read up to 51, with the sign hard wired to automatically cut out the rolling motors if 51 was read on the sign. I believe that the signs would reset to No Passengers if there was a reading/code error. I'll see if I can verify that.

Sand Box John wrote:Expect to pay something in the neighborhood $5.00 square foot. Don't know if contemporary inkjet printers are capable of printing on the Mylar. The rolls were done using silkscreen printing.


I expected to pay premium for something like this. I just hope that silk-screening isn't a thing of the past when I'm ready to print.

Sand Box John wrote:Solved that by doing this.
Image


I was thinking the same thing!
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby Sand Box John » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:12 am

"smallfire85"

I expected to pay premium for something like this. I just hope that silk-screening isn't a thing of the past when I'm ready to print.


For the purpose of historic preservation I would not alter what you have. I have a system map from the 1970s I added stations to when they opened. I hindsight I wish I had never done that.

Silk-screening is big business. Most of the printed t-shirt sold today are silk-screen printed. You can do it yourself. My mother and I use to apply the artwork on ceramic plaques and coffee mugs with silk-screens. It will take a lot of time using the do it yourself silk-screen method but in the long run it will be cheaper, especially if you make multiple copies.
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby STrRedWolf » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:58 pm

Sand Box John wrote:Silk-screening is big business. Most of the printed t-shirt sold today are silk-screen printed. You can do it yourself. My mother and I use to apply the artwork on ceramic plaques and coffee mugs with silk-screens. It will take a lot of time using the do it yourself silk-screen method but in the long run it will be cheaper, especially if you make multiple copies.


And if you do it yourself, you get to call the result an "artesian, hand-crafted rollsign." :D
I ride the (MTA Maryland) Penn Line (between Odenton and Baltimore). I used to work for MTA Maryland's IT department, and out of professional courtesy my responses may be limited. Wikimapia is wonderful (for track/interlocking locations)!
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby Sand Box John » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:51 pm

So far I have recreated the artwork for little over half of the places on the roll based on revision 7 of the destination code table.

When I compared my artwork of the orange New Carrollton to smallflame85 photograph of his I was amazed at how close they were. Seem WMATA's present version of Helvetica is not the same as the version used on the rolls back in the 1970s. The old font has the openings of the letters horizontal, the contemporary font has them at a angle.

Notice the difference between the lower case e in Dulles compared the lower case e in New.
Image
Image

I did take some liberties as in using legacy station names for selected stations in the strip maps and on the exterior signs were applicable. I also took destination code 70 that was use during the final shakedown before the opening of the Silver line and created a McLean destination with a strip map from Ashburn. Spring Hill has a strip map from Largo Town Center.

I have couple of old HP DesignJet 755CM wide format printers, only problem is it the maximum print width is 34" the signs are 36-29/32". I can get around that by printing the signs length wise and splicing them together. But the first thing I need to to is go through the documentation and figure out how to calibrate the printer as the color registration is slightly off.
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby Acton Town S5 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:28 am

SBJ,

Looking at the link re the codes you mention about each line having specific train numbers, any chance of a list of these.
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby Sand Box John » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:23 am

"Acton Town S5"
Looking at the link re the codes you mention about each line having specific train numbers, any chance of a list of these.


Funny you mention that, I was reviewing that passage last night.

Code: Select all
Red   
Shady Grove - Glenmont   1XX
Grovsnor - Silver Spring 2XX
Yellow                   3XX
Blue                     4XX
Green                    5XX
Silver                   6XX
                         7XX
                         8XX
Orange                   9XX

7XX or 8XX are like assigned to Blue over the Fenwick Bridge, don't know which though.

Train numbers stay with trains for the duration they are out on the railroad so there is no odd even, east west, north south.
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby srepetsk » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:54 pm

Sand Box John wrote:"Acton Town S5"
Looking at the link re the codes you mention about each line having specific train numbers, any chance of a list of these.


Funny you mention that, I was reviewing that passage last night.

Code: Select all
Red   
Shady Grove - Glenmont   1XX
Grovsnor - Silver Spring 2XX
Yellow                   3XX
Blue                     4XX
Green                    5XX
Silver                   6XX
                         7XX
                         8XX
Orange                   9XX

7XX or 8XX are like assigned to Blue over the Fenwick Bridge, don't know which though.

Train numbers stay with trains for the duration they are out on the railroad so there is no odd even, east west, north south.


7xx IDs are for trains that have been taken out of service or aren't in service yet, for instance when a train is offloaded and taken out of service for a brake issue. 8xx are also for non-revenue trains including training trains, track testing (i.e. dynamic brake testing or ATO testing), and various yard moves.
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby Sand Box John » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:25 pm

"srepetsk"
7xx IDs are for trains that have been taken out of service or aren't in service yet, for instance when a train is offloaded and taken out of service for a brake issue. 8xx are also for non-revenue trains including training trains, track testing (i.e. dynamic brake testing or ATO testing), and various yard moves.


Thank you for filling in the holes.

We can safely assume the revenue collection train carries a 9XX number?

So something this:
Code: Select all
Red   
Shady Grove - Glenmont         1XX
Grovsnor - Silver Spring       2XX
Yellow                         3XX
Blue                           4XX
Green                          5XX
Silver                         6XX
Not in service revenue trains  7XX
All other non revenue trains   8XX
Orange                         9XX
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby Acton Town S5 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:28 am

srepetsk wrote:
Sand Box John wrote:"Acton Town S5"
Looking at the link re the codes you mention about each line having specific train numbers, any chance of a list of these.


Funny you mention that, I was reviewing that passage last night.

Code: Select all
Red   
Shady Grove - Glenmont   1XX
Grovsnor - Silver Spring 2XX
Yellow                   3XX
Blue                     4XX
Green                    5XX
Silver                   6XX
                         7XX
                         8XX
Orange                   9XX

7XX or 8XX are like assigned to Blue over the Fenwick Bridge, don't know which though.

Train numbers stay with trains for the duration they are out on the railroad so there is no odd even, east west, north south.


7xx IDs are for trains that have been taken out of service or aren't in service yet, for instance when a train is offloaded and taken out of service for a brake issue. 8xx are also for non-revenue trains including training trains, track testing (i.e. dynamic brake testing or ATO testing), and various yard moves.

Thanks for that it was going to be my next question.
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby srepetsk » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:49 am

Sand Box John wrote:We can safely assume the revenue collection train carries a 9XX number?


The revenue collection trains carry 5xx train IDs. I'm not sure if there's any history behind why, though.
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby smallfire85 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:59 am

Sand Box John wrote:Seem WMATA's present version of Helvetica is not the same as the version used on the rolls back in the 1970s. The old font has the openings of the letters horizontal, the contemporary font has them at a angle.


Hey SBJ,

It's most likely the font you are using is not true Helvetica. The stations on the Silver line have the same font style as the lettering on the roll, so I'm not sure if Metro has modified their font standard since then. See links below:

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?144820

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?144836

That particular detail about the right angle letter edges is one detail that's used to distinguish Helvetica from other close copies, like Standard, Akzidenz-Grotesk, or Arial. According to Wikipedia, IBM didn't want to pay the royalties for Helvetica and so went with Arial. I've seen instances where the Helvetica was wrong in a program but another font, "Heloinia" was correct!

SF
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby Sand Box John » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:37 pm

"smallfire85"

Hey SBJ,

It's most likely the font you are using is not true Helvetica. The stations on the Silver line have the same font style as the lettering on the roll, so I'm not sure if Metro has modified their font standard since then.


The fonts I used was lifted from the upper and lower case samples in WMATA's Manual of Graphics Standards. It seems the creator of that document used Arial as the sample. The examples of the layouts of the signage in the rest of the document use Helvetica. Seems I have a lot of work to do redoing the artwork using the correct font.

See links below:

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?144820

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?144836


I took the picture and and wrote the article on the Silver line at nycsubway.org.

That particular detail about the right angle letter edges is one detail that's used to distinguish Helvetica from other close copies, like Standard, Akzidenz-Grotesk, or Arial. According to Wikipedia, IBM didn't want to pay the royalties for Helvetica and so went with Arial. I've seen instances where the Helvetica was wrong in a program but another font, "Heloinia" was correct!

I have heard the story about the royalties.
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Re: WMATA 1K Series Rollsign

Postby smallfire85 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:48 pm

Sand Box John wrote:[i]"smallfire85"The fonts I used was lifted from the upper and lower case samples in WMATA's Manual of Graphics Standards. It seems the creator of that document used Arial as the sample. The examples of the layouts of the signage in the rest of the document use Helvetica. Seems I have a lot of work to do redoing the artwork using the correct font.


Yeah, I checked out the Helvetica that came with the Adobe Pro I have at work, and it was similar to the font on your artwork. Tsk, tsk, tsk. I'm going to reach out to the graphics department about that.

SF
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