Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

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Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby YOLO » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:26 pm

https://www.wmata.com/business/procurem ... Q18062.pdf

Metro is looking for someone to haul away 50 2K/3K/6K and 192 5Ks. Looks like they want to clear out a few 2K/3K/6Ks early for some reason.
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby Chris Brown » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:15 pm

I wonder why they are getting rid of 6k's. I thought WMATA planned to eventually overhaul the 6k cars at mid-life.

Do you think they will use the 8k order to replace everything left and send the 6k's into early retirement? Makes me wonder if all of the fleet (except for the 7k's) have similar safety issues that were found with the 1k's and WMATA wants to get rid of them all before another crash happens.....
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby STrRedWolf » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:11 pm

Well... how dissimilar are the 2K's, 3K's, and 6K's to the 7K's? It looks like they'll standardize on the 7K's. Assuming the 8K's are compatible, and that both 7/8K's are going to have better control than the 2/3/6...

Wait. I think I know why.

Think about this: Everything is still manual operation, right? The only way for WMATA to resume automatic train operation (ATO) is to replace the entire signalling system to something much more modern that matches the tech that's in the 7K's, and is *incompatible* with the 2/3/6's. To retrofit the 2/3/6's, they would essentially need to be rebuilt from the frames up.

Ether the rebuild would cost *more* per car than just buying 300 new 8K series all at once, or they're hearing horror stories from the rebuild Maryland MTA is doing to their Light Rail vehicles and don't want to go through delays in getting the rebuilt equipment's bugs out.
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby davinp » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:57 pm

Why get rid of the 6000's? They are only 11 years old, in good shape and reliable (unlike the 5000 series)?
Alstom built the 6000 series and rehabilitated the 2000/3000 series cars. Metro has 184 6000 series cars.
We knew that Metro had planned to replace all the 5000 series with the new 7000 series since they are so unreliable, instead of rehabilitating them.

One problem with having several different model of railcars is higher maintenance costs. So, if they only had one or two, that would lower maintenance costs.
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby Chris Brown » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:31 pm

davinp wrote:Why get rid of the 6000's? They are only 11 years old, in good shape and reliable (unlike the 5000 series)?
Alstom built the 6000 series and rehabilitated the 2000/3000 series cars. Metro has 184 6000 series cars.
We knew that Metro had planned to replace all the 5000 series with the new 7000 series since they are so unreliable, instead of rehabilitating them.

One problem with having several different model of railcars is higher maintenance costs. So, if they only had one or two, that would lower maintenance costs.


The 2k, 3k and 6k cars are supposed to be mechanically identical.

So once the 5k's are gone WMATA will really only have two types of cars to maintain in theory.
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby MCL1981 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:43 am

That's not the entire 2/3/6k inventory. Only up to a maximum of 50 out of 362 2/3/K series, and up to a maximum of 50 out of 184 6k series. It is however the entire inventory of 5k series cars. This contract period of performance is 3-5 years.
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby STrRedWolf » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:42 pm

MCL1981 wrote:That's not the entire 2/3/6k inventory. Only up to a maximum of 50 out of 362 2/3/K series, and up to a maximum of 50 out of 184 6k series. It is however the entire inventory of 5k series cars. This contract period of performance is 3-5 years.


Aaaah. Anyone know how many 2/3/6's are stripped for parts and are just broken shells? I now think they're going to haul those away with the 5K's and free up some room while they have the chance.
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby dcmike » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:50 pm

STrRedWolf wrote: The only way for WMATA to resume automatic train operation (ATO) is to replace the entire signalling system to something much more modern that matches the tech that's in the 7K's, and is *incompatible* with the 2/3/6's. To retrofit the 2/3/6's, they would essentially need to be rebuilt from the frames up.


The underlying technology used in the 7000 series ATC system is identical to that on the 2/3000, 5000, and 6000 series cars. The only difference is the vendor. The 7000 series ATC system does not have any capabilities over and above that of any of the legacy cars.

Interestingly, the 2/3000, 5000, and 6000 series cars received a digital cab signal receiver retrofit that was completed fleet wide about 3 years ago. This was a reliability update though and did not modify how the system operates.

--------------

There have been rumblings around the agency that the relationship with Kawasaki has deteriorated to the point of Metro considering dropping the last two contract options for 7000 series and converting those orders to the forthcoming 8000 series.
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby YOLO » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:58 pm

well cross kawasaki off the 8K manufacturer list
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby Chris Brown » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:05 pm

dcmike wrote:
STrRedWolf wrote:
There have been rumblings around the agency that the relationship with Kawasaki has deteriorated to the point of Metro considering dropping the last two contract options for 7000 series and converting those orders to the forthcoming 8000 series.


What caused this to happen? Was it WMATA stupidity or Kawasaki delivering defective cars?

Did NYC have a good overall experience with Kawasaski? According to this article.. NYC has recently been having problems with Kawasaki cars. However, they are having issues with other manufacturers too:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/newer-mta-trains-beating-performance-starting-lag-article-1.3184932
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby YOLO » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:41 pm

Well, for what it's worth, apparently Metro paid for all 748 railcars already so I don't understand how they'd back out
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby MCL1981 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Contract termination negotiation would include reimbursement of some amount for cars not delivered. The circumstances would dictate how difficult this will be, and who is the one screwing things up.
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby tommyboy6181 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:47 pm

Very strange, because in early August, WMATA loved how the cars are coming along. In that article, they're projecting to possibly finish the project a year ahead of schedule. Also, the cars are meeting and exceeding their MDBD requirements.
https://wamu.org/story/17/08/01/7000-se ... ess-story/

NYC has its own issues, and I wouldn't fault Kawasaki completely on it. Their own service and maintenance forces have been deferring maintenance to where the newer cars, including the R160 cars have been performing worse. They are now piloting a refurbished car where selected components were overhauled, which will be implemented on the fleet if performance meets requirements. NYC also recently fired some of their executives and the TTC's Andy Byford is coming in to take over managing the agency.

PATH has ordered 50 more PA-5 cars from Kawasaki as of late, and the original PA-5 cars are going to have some components overhauled under scheduled maintenance.
http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_rel ... ath-system

Sounds to me that it could be someone within WMATA that likely screwed something up based on how they have managed things for many years now.
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Re: Metro is looking to dump 2k/3k/6k trains early

Postby Chris Brown » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:15 pm

tommyboy6181 wrote:Very strange, because in early August, WMATA loved how the cars are coming along. In that article, they're projecting to possibly finish the project a year ahead of schedule. Also, the cars are meeting and exceeding their MDBD requirements.
https://wamu.org/story/17/08/01/7000-se ... ess-story/

NYC has its own issues, and I wouldn't fault Kawasaki completely on it. Their own service and maintenance forces have been deferring maintenance to where the newer cars, including the R160 cars have been performing worse. They are now piloting a refurbished car where selected components were overhauled, which will be implemented on the fleet if performance meets requirements. NYC also recently fired some of their executives and the TTC's Andy Byford is coming in to take over managing the agency.

PATH has ordered 50 more PA-5 cars from Kawasaki as of late, and the original PA-5 cars are going to have some components overhauled under scheduled maintenance.
http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_rel ... ath-system

Sounds to me that it could be someone within WMATA that likely screwed something up based on how they have managed things for many years now.


Hmm.. maybe its more a case of Kawasaki giving WMATA the middle finger rather than WMATA having issues with Kawasaki. And that would not surprise me at all.
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