Class of NY&A vs LIRR

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Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby DaveBarraza » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:11 pm

Trying to get the deal on Non-Rule-261 operations using the LIRR's SCOR-based rule book - while there are still parts of the railroad using it! -areas where signals don't grant authority to move and do not supersede the superiority of trains (opposing trains at least).

Are the NY&A jobs (RS60, RS70, etc.) considered extras, or second class trains? To head east and switch Brookhaven Rail, does NY&A need a Form A, and Form L with a "Run extra" order in Box 5? Of course, after all that, they would still need a "clear block" displayed out past Knickerbocker Ave as well.

I'd like to implement the east end as accurately as I can in HO... Thanks,
Dave
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby workextra » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:33 pm

NYAR trains are run as extras.
LIRR no longer has superiority by class in its rules and hasn’t since af least the 80s
All LIRR scheduled trains by that point and possibly earlier were of the first class. So that with 251/261 class becomes void.
Because NYAR is for profit and paying to use LI tracks, they have an agreement that they have to run unless some unforceen circumstance, weather event, ect, prevents it. Or so I been told.
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby RGlueck » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:21 am

Does the LIRR or NY&A still generate freight from shippers and receivers on the Island?
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby workextra » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:47 am

If your referring to outbound freight generated on LI,it’s if anything C&D and resular trash .
I haven’t followed that end of the freight so I’m not sure what else If anything is exported.
Maybe a NYAR brother could contribute.
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:26 am

your questions would probably be better answered over in the NY&A forum.
viewforum.php?f=115
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby DaveBarraza » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:40 pm

Thanks workextra!

...Shows how old my surplus rulebook is!

That's an interesting tidbit about NYAR having some assurance they won't get sidelined by LIRR transportation. I always wondered what their "Status" was as a contractor on LIRR.


workextra wrote:NYAR trains are run as extras.
LIRR no longer has superiority by class in its rules and hasn’t since af least the 80s
All LIRR scheduled trains by that point and possibly earlier were of the first class. So that with 251/261 class becomes void.
Because NYAR is for profit and paying to use LI tracks, they have an agreement that they have to run unless some unforceen circumstance, weather event, ect, prevents it. Or so I been told.
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby LINYARailfan » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:26 am

DaveBarraza wrote:Thanks workextra!

...Shows how old my surplus rulebook is!

That's an interesting tidbit about NYAR having some assurance they won't get sidelined by LIRR transportation. I always wondered what their "Status" was as a contractor on LIRR.


workextra wrote:NYAR trains are run as extras.
LIRR no longer has superiority by class in its rules and hasn’t since af least the 80s
All LIRR scheduled trains by that point and possibly earlier were of the first class. So that with 251/261 class becomes void.
Because NYAR is for profit and paying to use LI tracks, they have an agreement that they have to run unless some unforceen circumstance, weather event, ect, prevents it. Or so I been told.

workextra,
My question is since the LIRR is doing track work this weekend 3/24-3/25 on the mainline due to the second track construction project does NYA typically work the mainline east of Ronkonkoma in these circumstances? Another question I have is when the second track construction project is complete and the LIRR is running half hour service on the Ronkonkoma branch, how will this impact the current and future NYA freight operations primarily east of Ronkonkoma?
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby DaveBarraza » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:47 pm

East end job runs out of Pine Aire. They won't be able to get out on the main this weekend due to the shutdown between Farmingdale and Ronkonkoma.

In terms of the east end after second track is done, Unless they are planning to operate a second set of equipment on the scoot I don't think much will change for the NY&A east of KO. AFAIK RS60 is working nights anyway. - They now occasionally run a daytime job out to Brookhaven Rail, I suppose second track will actually make that easier -they can just follow the passenger runs without worrying about plugging the opposing trains in single track.

West of KO however, you might see the job switching Coastal / Posillico and the rest working later at night. Just a guess.

Maybe workextra knows more...
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby DaveBarraza » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:13 pm

workextra wrote:NYAR trains are run as extras.


Follow up question:

RS60 has a train symbol (RS60) but it's running as an extra - no schedule.

On a form 19 would it be specified as "RS60 Eng 271", or "Extra 271 East"?

Thanks!
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby Backshophoss » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:19 am

TRY: To C+E NY&A 271 East,at Pine Aire
NY&A 271 East run Extra Pine Aire to Brookhaven
DS or super's initials

Also gets an "A" card with the TO# written on,time OK'ed by DS operator initials
"K" Card needed if running past any Block Limit Stations
IN CTC territory Extra trains run on signal indication
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby DaveBarraza » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:40 am

Thanks Backshophoss. Forgot that bit about specifying the foreign road name.

Would the run extra order only cover the non-CTC territory? "KO to YA", or would it specify the actual origin point (Pine Aire)? Just clarifying your example for my benefit...

I've read a bit on TT&TO but there isn't a lot of information on how is was practically applied, especially when signal systems became more prevalent in the mix.



Backshophoss wrote:TRY: To C+E NY&A 271 East,at Pine Aire
NY&A 271 East run Extra Pine Aire to Brookhaven
DS or super's initials

Also gets an "A" card with the TO# written on,time OK'ed by DS operator initials
"K" Card needed if running past any Block Limit Stations
IN CTC territory Extra trains run on signal indication
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby Backshophoss » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:13 pm

If there're just ABS type signals,still need a TO to run as an Extra.
Now,Pine Aire is in the middle of the KO 3rd Rail extension,the crew on NY&A X 271 East runs on signal indication to KO,
then get a TO (by block phone) to run KO to Brookhaven siding and clear up on that siding.
Not sure of what time frame you are modeling.
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby workextra » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:12 pm

In short Class as prescribed by the standard code rules is non applicable on the LIRR and was removed from the book some time after 1982.
In prior timetables there was a statement that said “all trains contained herein are of the first class “ or something to that effect.
Therefore this leaves Trains not authorized by the timetable to operate as “Extra trains”.
NYAR operates as an “Extra” in TT/TO territory East of Ronkonkoma.
Everywhere else they operate on signal indication through CTC.
Like it or not. Except for KO-GY. The timetable “authority” as defined in the rules is essentially void in broad strokes.
It becomes a mere suggestion of order for operations.
We can nitpick the details in another thread.
Hope that helps.
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Re: Class of NY&A vs LIRR

Postby DaveBarraza » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:26 pm

Thanks,

Backshophoss and Workextra!
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