Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

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Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby cam36 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:43 pm

Hi there,

Slow day at work and I was reading some older (much older) topics on this site, specifically about the DE/DM30ACs. They didn't seem to be well received by the Rail Road community in their first few years, as they were riddled with problems. Is that still the case?

Another question I have is, as these trains age, when will they be replaced? Will they be replaced? Or is there plan to electrify every line on the island? Sorry if this has been discussed before, I was just curious after reading these older posts.

Thanks!
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:29 pm

LIRR/MN/Amtrak are considering a combined purchase of new Dual mode diesels, no choice has been made but Siemens seemed to be most receptive of making a Dual Mode SC44 charger.
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:36 pm

They are scheduled for replacement in a triple-agency procurement of dual-mode locos for LIRR, MNRR, and NYSDOT for Empire service that'll simultaneously replace the P32AC-DM's. At least 75 units to be spread between the agencies, with an RFP that needs to be issued within 2 years to start the process rolling. That knocks out all the DM30AC's. The PRIAA documents for next-gen dual-mode engines on the Empire have reams of specs, so it's very well-known what technically they are looking for as the MNRR and LIRR engines will be identical to the Empire ones. In short: 110 MPH in diesel mode / minimum 80 MPH in E-mode, Tier 4 emissions compliance, 1000 kW HEP output (same as a Charger, and the max allowable by North American HEP cables), universal shoes for compatibility with over- and under-running third rail, equally-capable diesel and E-mode so all of third rail territory can be covered in E-mode not just the terminals, and battery storage in E-mode to prevent gapping (enough to pull a max-size consist 250 ft. @ 5 MPH, and to cover that distance out of a dead stop).

DE30AC's are supposed to be replaced simultaneously because they're at equal replacement age as the DM's, but it's not known how that's going to be handled in the order. Options include:

-- Separate procurement under separate RFP for straight diesels.

-- Simultaneous procurement under same RFP for a portion of the units to be straight-diesel. Since Siemens bid a dual-mode version of the Charger for the NYSDOT Request for Information (i.e. the pre- pre- bid documents to ascertain technical feasibility) 4 years ago, a single-source contract could easily portion out dual-mode Chargers vs. vanilla diesel Chargers from the same factory delivery to cover LIRR's split.

-- One procurement for all dual-modes, no straight-diesels. Because the size of the triple-agency order is going to be 75 minimum, there's already a lot of unit scale there keeping the unit prices down. The DE30AC replacements would be a much smaller fleet, so a decision to up the order to 90-100 duals (possibly even displacing the Upper-Harlem BL20GH's to Connecticut ownership so the MTA has one loco make to rule all) could price out attractively. Note that despite the higher unit cost of a dual, this is attractive because they can order the dual-mode make...but leave the E-mode compartment blank for the portion of the fleet that's only needed for pure diesel territory. That way they don't spend obscenely more than they need to for engines that aren't running to Penn...but have the option to convert them into full duals later by buying an E-mode module and plugging the empty compartment. And...can salvage E-mode modules from wrecked or long-term OOS duals, plug into one of the units delivered without E-mode, and re-claim a dual. There would be higher overall costs to going this route, but depending on how it technically scores the advantages could be compelling enough to go for it.


We don't know enough yet about how this is going to unfold to speculate on how they're going to apportion the order to handle the DE30AC replacements...other than both fleets of EMD's are definitely planned for retirement at the same time. Albany's still sabre-rattling about wanting more fed money, and obviously there's still some questions on how much above-and-beyond quantities each agency's going to need/want beyond the straight 1:1 replacements. MNRR Penn Station Access on the Hudson/Empire Connection side also looms here, as they'll need an outright expansion of their dual-mode roster in order to initiate that service in the lifespan of the next vehicles.

What we do know are who the bidders were on the earlier RFI: Siemens, with a Charger-based dual; Bombardier, with a third-rail version of the ALP-45DP; and MPI, with a dual-ified HSP-46. The RFI is old enough that MPI is almost certainly out of the mix, since the HSP-46 turned into a giant lemon and the company nearly killed itself trying to get that MBTA delivery done in one piece. And the Charger is now a shipping product, so Siemens has been able to put a lot more R&D into the dual-mode Charger derivative and can probably bid it clean. Since nobody else even sniffed at the RFI, that means it's pretty much Siemens vs. Bombardier with no dark horses looming in the background. With significant advantage for Siemens because: 1) they're so heavily embedded with Amtrak the Empire portion of the order is going to get heavy favoritism from the feds barking in NYSDOT's ear; 2) their dual is proposed to use the same QSK-95 conventional prime mover as the diesel Charger, unlike the ALP which has to use extremely problematic and performance-inefficient gensets to make weight; 3) no need to draft up a separate straight-diesel procurement for the DE30AC replacements as vanilla Chargers can be tacked onto the same contract, while Bombardier doesn't even make a straight-diesel "ALP45-D" (and if they did it would probably have the same crap gensets as the DP).
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby cam36 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:42 am

Very interesting. Thank you for the detailed response!
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby Backshophoss » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:09 pm

LIRR needs to replace its worn out MP-15's and SW 1001's,along with the GP-38-2's on lease to NY&A.
While MTA is buying tier IV freight power for NY&A,LIRR might look at Brookville to come up with a SW1001 replacement for ESA and Atlantic Branch
rescue/work service, and some BL20G's as multi use branch passenger/work train/rescue/switching power.
You really cannot switch with a Charger! :wink:
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:12 pm

or have Brookville/Altoona do total rebuild like they did to MN GP35r's , remember a locomotive is grandfathered for life.
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby Backshophoss » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:17 pm

Rebuild the GP38-2's might be possible,the MP15's and SW1001's are too far shot to heck for rebuild. :(
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby grobtech » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:35 am

Backshophoss wrote:LIRR needs to replace its worn out MP-15's and SW 1001's,along with the GP-38-2's on lease to NY&A.
While MTA is buying tier IV freight power for NY&A,LIRR might look at Brookville to come up with a SW1001 replacement for ESA and Atlantic Branch
rescue/work service, and some BL20G's as multi use branch passenger/work train/rescue/switching power.
You really cannot switch with a Charger! :wink:


The work locomotive fleet is going to be replaced as part of the 2010-2014 Capital Program. The engines leased to NYAR will be replaced as part of this project as well. MTA Capital Construction is funding the procurement of new protect locomotives. The LIRR and MTA CC are in the process of developing specs for two new protect locomotives with an envelop that will enable them to fit in the ESA tunnels.

http://web.mta.info/capitaldashboard/al ... f&PLTYPE=3
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby RGlueck » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:53 am

How about purchasing a fleet of, say, 31 Diesel locomotives with HEP, and a fleet of, say, 400 steel coaches? Either put turntables or wyes at the end of each branch, and run trains between each end of a line and Richmond Hill coach yards. At Jamaica, meet each incoming train with MU cars, capable of running into Penn Station. Have the passengers simply walk across the platform onto a new train?
Easy!
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby DutchRailnut » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:22 am

last post is just to off wall to answer.
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby DutchRailnut » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:11 pm

as for ESA compliant worktrain power ?? will we get a MTA contract repeat as:
http://www.ttmg.org/photos/tlogan/NYCS_ ... _OL922.jpg
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby Head-end View » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:57 pm

Re: RGlueck's post above, that sounds a little like the old LIRR of the 1950's and 60's before the Huntington electrification. :wink:
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby ConstanceR46 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:06 pm

RGlueck wrote:How about purchasing a fleet of, say, 31 Diesel locomotives with HEP, and a fleet of, say, 400 steel coaches? Either put turntables or wyes at the end of each branch, and run trains between each end of a line and Richmond Hill coach yards. At Jamaica, meet each incoming train with MU cars, capable of running into Penn Station. Have the passengers simply walk across the platform onto a new train?
Easy!


A step backwards and in the wrong direction. We shouldn't be looking to downsize our diesel fleet and move backwards.
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby RGlueck » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:38 am

Head-end View wrote:Re: RGlueck's post above, that sounds a little like the old LIRR of the 1950's and 60's before the Huntington electrification. :wink:


Ya think? It was meant as tongue-in-cheek, since that's what we had in the "good ol' days" of LIRR railroading. That people took my comment as serious kind of has me laughing. Traditional train services for commuters involves coaches and interchangeable locomotives; on the NH, the CNJ, and the LIRR. Modernized railroading has yanked the identity and guts from companies and replaced services with short-lived, bi-directional, faceless trains.
We old timers look at M1's, M3's, M7's, M_XYZ's and see subway cars. As for the DE's and DM's, Ugh! It may be modern, but it's ugly.
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Re: Future of Passenger Diesel on LI?

Postby nyandw » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm

RGlueck: "...Ugh! It may be modern, but it's ugly..." You were being kind, I gather? :wink: Motive power correct?
Last edited by nyandw on Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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