Belmont Spur

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby Crabman1130 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:14 pm

I don't think islander fans are going to flock to the railroad as a means of getting to games.

LI loves their cars.
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby ExCon90 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:18 pm

I get the impression that under berlin's proposal the Belmont shuttles would all run on 4, with a second track for meets added south of 4 where possible, and would not conflict with any movements in QUEENS interlocking. The complexity would occur at HALL (or whatever the current designation is). At one time I was thinking about the possibility of adding a track along a partly existing alignment south of 4, making the Hempstead Branch left-hand running, with the new track 5 south of 4 handling the westbounds, which would swing south of Hillside to trail into No. 1 Montauk, and up and over to enter Jamaica on the westbound side--but that was before the decision to eliminate through service to FBA. (In any case, probably too costly for the amount of traffic involved.)
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby berlintransit » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:37 pm

flexliner wrote:Berlin
would not your plan require many movements over switches (belmont to FBA trains having to be on the outer tracks to make those stops)
which would defeat the whole purpose (i think at least from diagrams that we have seen here in the past)
of the Jamacia reconstruction that has been discussed before................


No, no conflicting movements over switches. I was speaking of using the three northernmost tracks for Main and Hempstead Line trains. No local stops on these three tracks between Jamaica and Bellerose so there is enough capacity to get all the peak direction trains through on two tracks and all the reverse-peak trains on the other (exceptions could be made during low-traffic hours and especially for employee stops at Hillside).

I propose the FBA - Belmont service to use the southernmost track in both directions, stopping at Hollis and Queens Village, and adding double-track sections or using the sidings already in place on the south side today. This could most probably include a two-track island platform on the south side of the railway ROW at Queens Village for scheduled train meets, replacing the current MoW yard lead track and existing eastbound platform. Hollis could then have most trains stopping on the single south platform (eastbound today). West of Hollis station platform, a crossover to the northernmost yard/lead track is required for delay mitigation. This way, single-track operation between Jamaica and Belmont with trains normally meeting at Queens Village would allow for three trains per hour and direction. More would be possible if the Hillside lead tracks are excessively used for that purpose, but that would most probably negatively impact on the operations in the facility.

At the west end of Hillside facility, east of the Babylon Branch flyover, the three express tracks for through trains would become the four we know today with the two Babylon Branch tracks in the middle at the entry into Jamaica station. Add a couple of #24 crossovers so trains can change tracks at speed there. The FBA - Belmont trains would use one of the two Hillside lead tracks from there into Jamaica station.
The Jamaica reconstruction is not questioned at all, I was thinking of making the FBA - Jamaica shuttle - which is a result of the Jamaica capacity enhancements - more valuable. Every second train from FBA could run to Belmont, every other terminating at Jamaica, with FBA - Jamaica service every 10 mins at peak and every 15 off-peak, for example.

@ExCon90, yep, you got me. Although I do not see too much complexity even in HALL interlocking: The Jamaica complex restructuring provides for conflict-free routings for both directions of all four "lines" (Main Local, Main Fast, Atlantic/Valley Stream, Montauk from outside to middle) into or out of one of Jamaica's eight station platform tracks. I am proposing to use the existing connection to Hillside as a "fifth line" independent from the others. Anyways, nice idea to use the Montauk flyover for Hempstead trains! ;-)
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby BuddR32 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:49 pm

Question about Belmont Station.

Its been noted that the station was previously south of Hempstead Avenue. I'd assume where the large parking lot is. This makes me wonder about something I've always questioned regarding the Cross Island Parkway underpass at Hempstead Ave. I've always thought it was odd and not typical of construction of Robert Moses Parkways. Also noticing that it is directly in line with the LIRR Belmont Station. Was this underpass previously used by the railroad to carry the tracks to the former station?
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:26 pm

BuddR32 wrote:Question about Belmont Station: Its been noted that the station was previously south of Hempstead Avenue. I'd assume where the large parking lot is. This makes me wonder about something I've always questioned regarding the Cross Island Parkway underpass at Hempstead Ave. I've always thought it was odd and not typical of construction of Robert Moses Parkways. Also noticing that it is directly in line with the LIRR Belmont Station. Was this underpass previously used by the railroad to carry the tracks to the former station?

The Hempstead Avenue span over the parkway is concrete and typical of Moses construction. But the ramp underpass does look like a 2-track line. In fact it does resemble a Moses built rail structure: East New York Station.
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby BuddR32 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:58 am

R36 Combine Coach wrote:
BuddR32 wrote:Question about Belmont Station: Its been noted that the station was previously south of Hempstead Avenue. I'd assume where the large parking lot is. This makes me wonder about something I've always questioned regarding the Cross Island Parkway underpass at Hempstead Ave. I've always thought it was odd and not typical of construction of Robert Moses Parkways. Also noticing that it is directly in line with the LIRR Belmont Station. Was this underpass previously used by the railroad to carry the tracks to the former station?

The Hempstead Avenue span over the parkway is concrete and typical of Moses construction. But the ramp underpass does look like a 2-track line. In fact it does resemble a Moses built rail structure: East New York Station.


The parkway overpasses, yes I agree, as for the ENY Structure, I forgot that he had a hand in that elimination work. Thank you. (Still curious if the Belmont overpass was rail)
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby newkirk » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:33 am

This should be where the parking lot is today, correct ?

Image
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby nyandw » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:17 pm

newkirk wrote:This should be where the parking lot is today, correct ?Image

Your photo view south from Hempstead Tpke Overpass. :-) What is the date on this photo?

Google shows a parking lot!

Image
In 1957, the LIRR constructed a new terminal and track layout adjacent to the park and north of Hempstead Turnpike. All the old 1905 facilities were torn down and the tracks were all removed. This view from May, 1971, shows the "new" station facility with covered crosswalk connecting the various platforms. An MU double deck car in charcoal gray and orange colors is at the head end of the train in the center while all the other cars are in the new MTA "platinum mist" color scheme. Note that the "new" platforms were all low level. This created a problem when M1 trains began service to the park. Temporary short stepped platforms were constructed and lined up along the low levels, and cars would need to be spotted carefully to allow passengers to detrain or to climb aboard. (Dave Keller data and archive)


Anyone with a post 1957 track map?
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby newkirk » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:59 pm

nyandw wrote:What is the date on this photo?


There is no date on the slide mount. Even though the photo is black & white, there are many tuscan red cars and at least one gray car.

That may give a clue to when this photo was taken.
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby nyandw » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:38 am

Hi Bill, Dave Keller indicates: 'I have several images similar to this in my archive. This was shot during the transition era . . the cars are mostly Tuscan Red with a Tichy scheme in the background. All mine are similar and were shot in 1949-50. I'd say the same dating would hold for this image."

I have dated this as c.1950.. Best, Steve
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby newkirk » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:55 am

nyandw wrote: Hi Bill, Dave Keller indicates: 'I have several images similar to this in my archive. This was shot during the transition era . . the cars are mostly Tuscan Red with a Tichy scheme in the background. All mine are similar and were shot in 1949-50. I'd say the same dating would hold for this image."

I have dated this as c.1950.. Best, Steve


Thanks Steve and Dave. Any idea when that yard was closed and torn up ?
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby nyandw » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:44 pm

Thanks Steve and Dave. Any idea when that yard was closed and torn up ?[/quote]
Image
In this c. 1905 view looking east we see the original Belmont Park Race Track station with 4 steam-drawn trains and one electric MU train. Opened in 1905, this station was built south of Hempstead Turnpike and served until newer station facilities were constructed north of Hempstead Turnpike in 1957 at which time this whole area was torn out. Note in this image that there is no electrification in the low-level platform, steam train area and a track fence separates it from the electrified tracks at the high level platform at the far right. (Dave Keller data and archive)
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby newkirk » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:34 am

Thanks Steve.

That's the first time I ever saw this photo of steam & MU electric sharing the original terminal.
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby nyandw » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:53 pm

Here's m race tack page:http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/racetracks/lirrracetracks.htm

Image
Now we fast forward a few years to August 12, 1919. Looking in the same direction as the previous image we see some changes. First, electrification has been added to all tracks. We also see that the platform shelters that extended down the entire length of the platforms have been removed from the left three and only short, truncated platform shelters have been left standing. Notice that these three platforms are still low level while the two at the far right are high level. Those two still retain their full-length platform shelters. Especially note how overgrown the two platforms at the left have become since the previous, 1905 image! (Dave Keller data and archive)
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Re: Belmont Spur

Postby MADDOG » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:15 pm

If you would like to see a lot of this area, you should go to the Fairchild aerials site.
I found over a dozen photos of Belmont and the surrounding neighborhood of Elmont.
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