Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

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Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby st50maint » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:27 pm

I was in the first car of a M3 going from Jamaica to Penn.
There were maybe 10 people in the car.
I was standing looking out the door's window just left of the engineer's cab.
The conductor comes by and tells me I can not stand there. He said something about the safety of the engineer if he has to exit.
I have done this dozens of times over the years without a problem.
So, is there a policy on this?
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:02 pm

there is on Metro North, and a slide is mounted on back of first 3 seater to close off the front end.
with a person standing next to cab door the engineer is a sitting target.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby Noel Weaver » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:15 pm

Picture yourself in a broom closet cab with a huge picture window right in front of you moving at maybe 60 MPH or even a lot faster, vandals close by heave a rock, brick or other large object at you. If the engineer is lucky enough to see it he or she does not have time to be nice, asking you to more or anything else when his or her life is at risk. Wheh I was running these tin cans 40 plus years ago I was always thinking about this problem and more than one I shooed people out of there. The conductor was absolutely right in doing this.
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby ConstanceR46 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:49 pm

In an evactuation, some galloot of a railfan blocking a half-cabin prolly isn't gonna help the situation. You're allowed to stand in the last car and that's just as good, if not as romantic.
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:28 am

It has been reported that SEPTA crews have been known to close off the front row on the Silverliner Vs as well, some cases with yellow tape or rope.
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby SwingMan » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:36 am

The conductor is responsible for the safe movement of the train, and part of that is protecting his/her fellow crew members.

It is not your train, they can enforce the rules they see fit for the safe movement of the train. You sound very selfish when you take it personally, IMO. If you actually stood in the shoes of the engineer or conductor your opinion would be different.
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby milepost39 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:52 am

How do you possibly know the OP is selfish and is taking it personally??? He asked a good question and wanted to know if there is a rule on it. I never knew this, especially with hundreds of front end videos on YT. For one, I never considered a situation where an engineer would need to abandon his post.
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby Head-end View » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:50 am

When I rode the head car of M-1/M-3 trains a lot, I usually stood at the first vestibule and looked all the way forward thru the storm door window. However, I did stand at the front door a few times and one engineer back in the 1980's told me I couldn't stand there. But another day a different engineer actually invited me up front when he saw my interest, and he said others probably wouldn't mind if you asked them nicely. On a few other occasions where I was standing up front with a buddy, I did ask the engineers if we were in the way there, and they said we could stay there, but just don't lean on the cab door. Regrettably when the M-9's arrive in a few more years and the M-3's are retired, this will no longer be an issue. :(

Also re: SEPTA's Silverliner V's, they usually do close the front row of seats, but it's not a problem. You can sit in the second, third, or fourth row and still have a good view out the left-side railfan window on those cars. :-D
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby KT3 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:29 pm

As the majority of responses indicate, it seems like this is a legitimate question for which even among LIRR employees, there is widespread confusion and misinformation as to what is the actual rule and protocol. Perhaps rather than cast aspersions on those who are asking the question, someone from the LIRR with knowledge of the actual rule and/or official protocol could weigh in on this question?
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby krispy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:00 pm

Part of my training was supposed to ride the head end and "observe the PC". My instructor gave us instructions on what to look for so we could prove we did it, and then told us the tale of Patsy Molese, a LIRR engineer who perished in a RDC just before shoving his trainee and/or fireman out of the way when his scoot struck a truck. They had to cut apart the cab to get him out. The instructor told us to make sure we stayed clear of the door, and if the engineer flew out of the cab, it was in our best interest to follow closely behind. In this day and age of see something, say something, the crew has considerable latitude in choosing what they deem safe, and if they ask you to move, so be it. As mentioned earlier, there's always the rear end, and more videos on YouTube, etc. if that ain't enough... :wink:
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby Head-end View » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:56 pm

KT3, to expand on what Krispy said, I don't know if there is an actual rule or policy on LIRR. I have the idea that it's up to the engineer and conductor to decide what's appropriate and safe in their judgment.
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby JamesRR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:44 am

Does anyone know the year the Metro-North policy took effect? I remember riding at the front window of an M-2 back in 1997 without incident.

Often the engineers would have the door open anyway, so the window would be blocked (don't blame them considering how small the cab is)
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby Trainmaster5 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:39 pm

I can recall leaving a NYCT training class in the Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street subway complex with a few other TA employees about 10 years ago. A few of us, M/M, T/Os, and an instructor were heading eastbound so we boarded the railroad at FBA and walked up to the engineer's car. He engaged us in conversation as we departed and my instructor and I, two old guys, told the rest of the folks about the Woodhaven station. The engineer told us to look out the front window and after leaving East New York my instructor and I realized when the consist began to slow down that we could hear a group of 20-30 year old transit employees oohing and aahing when they saw the station and the chatter continued past Boland's Landing all the way to Jamaica. The engineer busted out laughing when I told him that my instructor and I were probably the only two non-railroad people at Jamaica station that day that had also used the Union Hall station in the past. I'm retired now but there have been times when I'd come aboard at FBA or East New York in full M/M uniform and, if the conductor and engineer allowed it, I'd look out the window 'til we reached Jamaica. As a M/M on the subway system we never had a rule about people looking out the RFW and our older equipment also had those cramped cabs. Maybe it has something to do with this post 9/11 world? Carry on.
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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby DutchRailnut » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:06 pm

JamesRR wrote:Does anyone know the year the Metro-North policy took effect? I remember riding at the front window of an M-2 back in 1997 without incident.

Often the engineers would have the door open anyway, so the window would be blocked (don't blame them considering how small the cab is)


it is not a policy, but just like LIRR a safety call the crew makes and railroad has backed us on it by installing the slide, informing passengers front area is closed.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Not allowed to stand at front door window of M3?

Postby MACTRAXX » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:11 pm

Everyone:

Interesting topic concerning the head-end view out the front of M series MU cars...

I figured that it was the T&E crew's call whether to allow passengers to watch out of the front of
MU trains. When I rode a train and was able to get to the front end I would try to sit in that first
seat and lean over to watch out of the window's lower left corner or if I had to stand I would try
to stand to the left side against the left bulkhead - and allow someone standing behind to watch
out if they chose to do so. I never bothered the Engineer and for that matter knew never to lean
on the cab door and would only make conversation if I was spoken to and/or the door was open.

I remember one eastbound ride I took back in the early 1980s on a M1 train headed for Babylon.
I was watching out the front window and as we rode through the little used (or already c!osed)
Springfield Gardens Station youths hanging around the west staircase threw debris of some type
at the window - I was startled but there was no damage to the window or train - the Engineer of
this train opened up his door and asked me if I was OK which I was. I wanted more to be able to
identify the youths in question if need be but was thankful nobody got hurt in any way.

The MU bulletproof glass windshields definitely are key to the safety of train crew and passengers.

The more recent times that I rode M3 cars I rode in the rear end and sat in the front left seat to
look out - the rear brakeman likely will ride in the rear cab - even then I knew to not bother them
unless I was spoken to to not interfere with their duties. I do not want to be a distraction...

Dutch: I was unaware that MNCR has a policy concerning head end views on their M3 fleet.
Do you have a picture of the "slide" that closes off the front seat area near the M3 cab?

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EXPRESS TRAIN TO NEW YORK PENN STATION-NO JAMAICA ON THIS TRAIN-PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING TRAIN DOORS
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