LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby STrRedWolf » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:43 pm

mark777 wrote:Trucking industry will go in par with the rail industry, so if you have a CDL, get ready.

Not only trucking, but anything CDL w/Passenger endorsement and rail. That will affect any mass transit agency, so the FTA will get involved. That will be part of the CDL Medical certification at least. Betcha the transit unions are going to start howling until they see the edict the FTA is slapping on the MTA's.
I ride the (MTA Maryland) Penn Line (between Odenton and Baltimore). I used to work for MTA Maryland's IT department, and out of professional courtesy my responses may be limited. Wikimapia is wonderful (for track/interlocking locations)!
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby Head-end View » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:47 pm

mirrodie wrote:
Head-end View wrote:Very good posts by mark777 and puckhead. In terms of realistic operating procedure, I think Mark's suggestion re: crew deployment and tasking is the most likely to happen and be successful. Mostly because it seems practical and it won't cost the railroad any $$$.

Oh, and I meant ot ask, how is it NOT costing any $$$? Its an allocation of resources with costs tied to it.

It's not adding any additional costs because you are only using crew members who are already being paid to be on the train anyway. Their tasks are just being reorganized. Read Mark's post carefully :-)
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby Morisot » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:01 pm

Sorry, I was trying to be a bit too cute I think. I was hoping that there might be a relatively cheap, current technology that could be employed quickly and effectively to accomplish the same thing as having a 2nd person in the cab without actually having a 2nd body there.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby scopelliti » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:12 pm

I feel you are all being very human in being quick to try to jump to a solution. It is a very human reaction.

The first thing to do is to understand in depth the recent accidents and what all the contributing factors were. It is very easy to look at an accident and quickly decide what actions need to be taken. What experience should teach us is to investigate in depth and to understand all the factors that contributed to the accident. That will then allow us to list all the root causes of the accident.

And only then can we start to propose solutions. Yes, Start. When you propose a solution, you perturb the system and you have to try to ensure that the proposed change does not lead to unintended consequences.

A good example is the Air France 447 accident mentioned earlier. Yes, the pitot tubes froze over. Yes the autopilots turned off when they started getting bad flight data. Yes, the pilot in the right hand seat took some incredibly unexpected actions. Yes the Airbus flight control philosophy contributed to the loss of control.

But one root issue was found to have been something somewhat unexpected. Turns out the flight crew was not well trained in how to handle an aircraft that loses autopilot and flight data at 35000 feet. The dependence and reliance on automation had led to pilots not being properly trained how to "fly the plane" under those conditions.

As many of you know... virtually every railroad rule is written in blood. Let's hope some effective changes arise from this accident.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby B&M 1227 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:01 am

hospital move just went westbound by my apartment on Atlantic Ave... crummy iphone grab shot from the bedroom window. NY&A 100, 2 cars, and NY&A 101 bringing up the markers. was so excited to see a 1001 out here that I neglected to get the car numbers.
Did we ever hear a music sweeter than the one that thrills, as it floats along the Deerfield, as it echoes o'er the hills.
How we watch that little engine as it stalks across the plain; was there ever music sweeter, was there ever sight completer, than the coming of the train?
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby mark777 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:09 am

As I mentioned already before, the easiest solution at the moment is to get the conductor to be in the cab when entering the terminal, maybe Atlantic terminal, Port Washington, Far Rock and Long Beach to be in specific where the line ends at a bumper block. In all of these stations, the brakeman can cover the doors and handle the announcements. Putting an extra person in the cab at critical curves might be overkill, Especially when PTC comes to play. Although I would say that it wouldn't hurt for Conductors to be familiar with speed restrictions at certain areas of the RR, that way, a Conductor that feels that the train is traveling too fast may take it upon themselves to stop the train if they had to. Most may not like it, but, if it is in the name of safety and if it won't cost the company more, why not? on the M-7s, anyone keyed in can see the speed the train is traveling. It's simply easier to shift the duties of crew members to accommodate a mandate of having two crew members in the cab when coming into the terminal.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby flexliner » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:15 am

Kenorian is correct
sleep apnea occurs while sleeping
but it does result in excessive daytime sleepiness
especially in situations that are monotonous ie truck on long highway in low light plane flight at night and (gasp) train as well
also watching TV boring lectures
heck i have had snoring in my waiting room as OSA patients waited to see me for a consult and they fell asleep

watching TV who cares. when the CO2 level rises and stimulates the respiratory drive again the person will wake and not remember the scenes they missed
on the other hand driving anything - if VERY LUCKY they will wake but most of the time the end result is the (inevitable) accident

as i noted at MN the condition of OSA in some locales is reportable to DMV - unless treated
patients who use CPAP regularly (and let me stress when properly indicated) function perfectly well
its success rate in literature is over 90 maybe 95 percent

what might need to happen is screening of potential engineers truck drivers pilots etc for OSA
and if found mandate treatment prior to employment.
a sleep test with CPAP can prove the improvement and the patients will testify to such as well in most though not all cases

now as to whether that kind of a policy would be more cost effective than two people in cab that is for discussion
and as to whether that kind of policy is legal need to discuss as well though i suspect it is as people are screened for other conditions

and if someone is found to have OSA and is not hired because he is not treated - is that discrimination against a person with a disability?
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby mark777 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:23 am


Ah... you touched on an issue that is to be known as the big can of worms that was opened. That was an excellent question. Is it discrimination? Interested to see how this plays out both in rail and trucking sectors. What happens then to an engineer that falls into my category? I have insomnia, but they said I have mild sleep apnea. CPAP didn't work, mouth pc wasn't covered, then what? Certainly I will not do that new contraption that they say gets implanted under your skin and sends electric stimulation or whatever to cause the muscle in your airways to stay open. So what happens to that engineer? out of service? disqualification? And this won't work well for the RRs or trucking companies either because that will cost them more with a reduction in staff. They come up with these ideas quickly but don't think things through.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby flexliner » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:47 am

good morning Mark
(seems to be around 0200 if you are in EST)

first insomnia and OSA are different animals though i suppose they can coexist.
insomnia is usually treated medically ie melatonin and other sleep aiding meds

surprised that CPAP was not effective but alas there never is 100 percent
mandibular advancement devices are very rarely covered by insurers
they are also quite effective though per literature a bit less than CPAP

the implanted hypoglossal stimulator has been getting good press in the med literature at least lately

i suggest anyone with OSA seek out an ENT who is competent in that aspect of the specalty (not all are)
one can also have a Drug Induced Sleep Endoscopy (see videos on you tube) to determine the exact level of the obstruction of the OSA
and then the doc offers potential surgical options of which there are quite a few.

i suspect as OSA is increasingly recognized maybe maybe things may change a bit
(unions pushing for tests and various treatments to be covered. hey if a treatment exists and is not covered is that discrimination? after all these are not experimental
(as are some chemo etc) rather literature proven...........)
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby flexliner » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:55 am

actually thinking about it i venture that testing for OSA and treating for those in whom it is discovered
(which should allow them to function/work "normally" and without the risks of OSA)
would probably be far far cheaper than blanket decrees that every truck bus and train need two people up front
but then how often does logic actually work in our world?
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby jackintosh11 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:54 am

Don't all the end of line terminals except Penn Station have bumper blocks?
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby RailTrek » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:48 pm

Penn has bumpers at tracks 1&2 for NJT
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby MACTRAXX » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:27 pm

RT and JT:

Penn Station has four stub end tracks: Tracks 1&2 and 3&4 which are primarily used by NJT trains.
These four tracks have bumper blocks on the east end and are not equipped with third rail.

Back to topic: All LIRR tracks that dead end at a station have bumper blocks. Port Washington,
Hempstead, Far Rockaway, Long Beach and West Hempstead along with Atlantic Terminal are
the prime examples of this in electrified territory on the LIRR...

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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby MCL1981 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:30 pm

What size and product could be used as a crash attenuator on these bumper blocks. Think like they do on the dump trucks that protect work zones on the highway. Or the ends of median barriers. Designed to absorb crash energy reducing the impact to the human occupants. Something of this sort could absorb some energy, so by the time it hits the solid block, it stops rather than overriding it or derailing? Obviously it would have to be more substantial than a barrel of water. I'm picturing this only for a terminal environment. Not for use in yards and such. The amount of energy involved could make this impractical.


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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby litz » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:51 pm

Those might stop a car or truck fairly well, but there's a big difference between a 4500lb car, a 50,000lb big rig, and a million pounds of train.
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