"19" orders

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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Re: "19" orders

Postby Amtrak7 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:03 pm

How often are "A" cards used today? I know that in order to operate in manual block territory, a train needs a K-card, but does every one need an A card too?
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Re: "19" orders

Postby DaveBarraza » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:51 pm

How often are "A" cards used today?


I'm going to *guess* and hope to be corrected...

With the requirement that conductors check in for orders prior to beginning a trip, and with train order signals at numerous locations in 261 territory, I would say generally no.

I think if you are beginning a trip on a portion of the LIRR where 261 is not in effect, so signals are not granting the authority to move then a form A would still be required.

Greenport, Montauk I would think, and Speonk / Ronkonkoma if you are headed East - I think the Form A is also a way of formalizing that a particular engine and crew is authorized to run on the authority of a particular schedule.

I'm puzzled myself about the lower Montauk back when that was still in use. You needed a Form "S" to leave LIC and enter "C", and then from Bliss East I'm not sure what let you go, aside from timetable... or the fact that you were on the prescribed track headed in the prescribed direction. And heading west, I guess JAY gave you a Form "S" while you were at Jamaica?

Most of what I've read in various places about 251 territory is that something else has to give you the initial authority to move into it and then the signals protect in the "Current of Traffic" direction. Maybe LIRR is different.

Just theorizing here! Pick it apart, LIRR veterans!
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Re: "19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:04 pm

Kelly&Kelly wrote:So when operating into the tunnel under manual block rules, were you given a green flag by the operator in addition to the signal to convey the condition of the block?

When we ran trains east on Line 2, I doubt very much that they got a green flag or lantern. They just took the signal. A similar situation, where I had a lot of experience was on the Jersey City branch, running PATH trains between Journal Square and Newark against the current of traffic. You'd tell the next tower the time the last opposing train had passed you, and ask him for a clear block. Then you would give the PATH train the signal; that was it.
Our six towers, C, JO, F, Harold, Q, and R, were on a speaker system that was always open. "A" tower might have been listening too. When you heard a train report that was for you, you dropped what you were doing and started copying. Working JO you would announce trains this way: "F and R, JO on one" for trains going around the loop into the east end of Sunnyside Yard, and give the report; "F and H, JO on one" for LIRR or New Haven trains; and "F and Q, JO on two," for trains going into the west end of Sunnyside.

Those Pennsy rules I posted here shows "K" cards and CT1250. The "K" card gave a train permission to pass a block limit signal, (rule 292,) clear block, 280, or permissive block, 289, for freights following freights. Top speed 15 mph. The Pennsy did away with the Permissive Block somewhere around 1962. Without a K card, the train would have to stop at the next bock limit signal and phone you for permission to proceed. I believe we could give him a K card over the phone too, so he wouldn't have to stop at the block limit station(s) beyond that one. We didn't have radios when I was working the Bel Del. For example, on the Bel Del, we had two block limit stations between Belvidere and Phillipsburg: CR and DY, two signals trains had to get permission to pass.
CT1250 accompanied all train orders that were handed on. It told the recipient what orders he should be getting.

Sorry I don't know much about the LIRR, except Speonk. If my uncle missed his train at West Hampton, he'd drive like mad on the parallel road and catch it at Speonk. Also my uncle lived on Quantuc Bay and I remember getting glimpses FM "C liners" pulling trains at the top of the bay.
I remember one seat rides from Penn Station to Westhampton in the 1940s. I didn't know it at the time, but they were courtesy of the DD1s. When I was working towers in New York in 1957-58, we still had a pair of DD1s pulling the wire train around the station on third trick. I liked the sound it made, side rods clanking like a steam engine drifting.
And one time in steam days, I had my head out the window all the way to Westhampton. Was I surprised when I looked in the mirror and saw my black face.
Last edited by philipmartin on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby Dump The Air » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:53 am

this thread is great.

also phil, that bit about the bel-del and the CT1250 is being saved into a long word doc of facts and antidotes i have about that stretch of railroad, great stuff. no radios? even with the LHR being an early adopter of the onboard radio? well i suppose thats a question and discussion for another forum/thread....
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Re: "19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:40 am

Thanks Dump the air. I worked G tower from 1960 to '64 and again for a few months in 1972, when it closed. A beautiful place, and the L&HR crews were nice guys. I got a little time in Frenchtown around 1972.

Just for the record, I posted "Dump the air" on the Friends of the Rail website ten days ago. http://www.friendsoftherail.com/forum/v ... 981#p38996
In Miscellaneous, Re. American RR Terms I wrote:
Slang: "dump the air." North American trains use a compressed air braking system, (among other systems.) Opening the brake valve full, as in an emergency brake application, permits all the compressed air to escape, and is called "dumping the air."
FOTR is a South African website.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby Kelly&Kelly » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:20 pm

Phil, the block line reporting you speak of in New York -- "F and H, JO on one" -- was still how they did it when we were there in the late 70's. And we were supposed to display the green flag for the condition of the block, and we made certain to have one in C and JO, though I doubt it was ever done.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:12 pm

Kelly&Kelly wrote:'. And we were supposed to display the green flag for the condition of the block, and we made certain to have one in C and JO, though I doubt it was ever done.

Thank you for supplementing my recollection Kelly&Kelly. A fellow operator or leverman i take it.
There was a plate on the interlocking machine at JO that said "Cabin D". I guess that was JO's original designation.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby nyandw » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:31 pm

“JO” TOWER (PRR) .1 MILES EAST OF PENN STATION, NY OUT OF SVC: 9/30/94)
“JO” INTERLOCKING (R.C.) EAST OF PENN STATION (CONTROLLED FROM PSCC. IN SVC: 9/30/94)

“D” CABIN: 1 DOUGLASTON DRAWBRIDGE (SWINGBRIDGE) OVER LITTLE NECK CREEK. (BRIDGE BUILT 1894. BRIDGE TENDER'S CABIN ON S. SIDE OF TRACKS
BUILT ON RECLAIMED W. EDGE OF CREEK. GAUNTLET TRACK AND BLOCK OFFICE WITH 4-LEVER S&F MECHANICAL MACHINE IN SVC: 9/1911 – 3/7/1923)


“D” CABIN: 2 DOUGLASTON DRAWBRIDGE (SWING BRIDGE) OVER LITTLE NECK CREEK. (BRIDGE REPLACED WITH DOUBLE TRACK SPAN. BRIDGE TENDER'S
CABIN AND BLOCK OFFICE RELOCATED TO N. SIDE OF TRACKS, ON E. SIDE OF CREEK. IN SVC: 3/7/1923-1926. 4-LEVER S&F MECHANICAL MACHINE. AFTER 1926, BECAME BRIDGE TENDER’S CABIN ONLY. RENAMED “DOUGLASTON DRAW BRIDGE” IN ETT's. PER EMERY DATA,CABIN REMOVED: 1950)

Research: Dave Keller


Possible it was moved from Cabin "D" to "JO"?
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Re: "19" orders

Postby workextra » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:15 am

Steve,
As for "JO" formerly being "D Cabin" that would not be under LIRR, but rather a PRR D Cabin On the (New York Terniminal Division)

Till this day there are LIRR employees who for some reason are under the false beliefs that Penn Station is "LIRR territory"
When it's actually part of the NEC as Amtrak's NY Division. And LIRR is just using trackage rights granted to them
From back in the PRR days when he Penn Station was built.
It's Amtraks train set under their control for the most part.
If Amtrak desires to restrict LIRR from Penn Station until their MU fleet can extinguish its Auxiliary lights independent off there Head lights to facilitate safer visibility of signals, they can. It's their train set.
As we all know, politics will prevail and such would never happen.
Both roads have been and are working together for a common good.
My point is LIRR employees are actually qualified on that 3 mile stretch of Amtraks NCE. Why some still think it's LIRR I don't know.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby collin7 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:30 am

philipmartin wrote:There was a plate on the interlocking machine at JO that said "Cabin D". I guess that was JO's original designation.

It seems right at the opening of Penn Sta, PRR assigned 2 of the 4 towers (cabins), A,B,C & D, to the LIRR to man. Tower B became "KN" & tower D became "JO" using LIRR's "call letters" designation system. There's some info in this "East Wind" PDF at Steve's site at: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/East%20Wind%20Special%20Issues/EastWind_Special%20Edition%201.pdf See pages 20, 54 & 57 for quick reference to these towers.

p.s. If, like me, you get interested & read the whole PDF (re: building of the tunnels, Penn & Sunnyside) & want more, you can just change the very last digit in the URL from '1' into either a '2' or a '3' for parts two or three. (so the %201.pdf becomes %202 or %203.pdf) Or, part 1part 2 | part 3
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Re: "19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:49 am

What a great link, Collin7. Thank you. It mentions the loops between F and R, and the subs between Q and F. We still used those names in 1957 when I entered tower service.
I might also add that JO was directly under the 7th Avenue subway, and very dusty as a result.
One minor error: on page 2, the caption for the back cover says GG1 "9124" emerging from Bergen Hill. The GG1s were numbered in the 48 and 49 hundreds, (until Amtrak modified them.) I wonder how that error got in. (It's the 4924.)
The LIRR took over their ticket office in Penn Station in 1956 or 57. At the time i was a clerk in the reservation bureau, and later the PRR's ticket office. Aparently we were on the same roster as the people selling LIRR tickets. One day we were told that we could go to the LIRR if we wanted to because it was taking over its ticket office.
Lastly, after a number of years, the track layout for Penn Station was changed to make it more efficient.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby Kelly&Kelly » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:47 am

The Pennsylvania Station Yardmaster job that handled LIRR trains (located on the platform at 21 Track) was turned over to the LIRR around 1978. The PRR employees who owned those positions could also go over to the LIRR and would have "prior rights" to their positions in Penn on the LIRR roster. Assistant Stationmasters, who were management at the time and the Station Master were also turned over to the LIRR a few years earlier.

Anyone remember the WWII-era flood gates at the station ends of the tunnels, and the controls in the towers to close them? They had been installed to protect the station in the event of an enemy torpedo attack on the tunnels.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:41 pm

Page 178 in that PC timetable that I posted on this thread has a two paragraph instruction on the flood gates.
Submarines attacking the tubes; I never thought of that.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby ExCon90 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:05 pm

I've sometimes wondered whether the change from B and D to KN and JO occurred at about the same time as the PRR changed from telegraph to telephone communications (and Telegraphs and Signals became Communications and Signals). While A, B, C, and D are distinguishable enough in Morse, B and D over the phone would not be, and you wouldn't want two interlockings with such similar designations so close together in the same territory. I assume that for the same reason when they named KARNY tower they dropped the E after the K because crews from Enola and PotYard would almost certainly pronounce it KEER-nee or KERR-nee, and they wanted to make sure that everybody said KARR-nee like the locals.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby nyandw » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:21 pm

collin7 wrote:
philipmartin wrote:There was a plate on the interlocking machine at JO that said "Cabin D". I guess that was JO's original designation.

It seems right at the opening of Penn Sta, PRR assigned 2 of the 4 towers (cabins), A,B,C & D, to the LIRR to man. Tower B became "KN" & tower D became "JO" using LIRR's "call letters" designation system. There's some info in this "East Wind" PDF at Steve's site at: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/East%20Wind%20Special%20Issues/EastWind_Special%20Edition%201.pdf See pages 20, 54 & 57 for quick reference to these towers.

p.s. If, like me, you get interested & read the whole PDF (re: building of the tunnels, Penn & Sunnyside) & want more, you can just change the very last digit in the URL from '1' into either a '2' or a '3' for parts two or three. (so the %201.pdf becomes %202 or %203.pdf) Or, part 1part 2 | part 3


Geez... I'm sorry I didn't post the link...Duh! George Chiasson, Jr.'s work is extensive to say the least. More to come from him and I'll advise when it's posted! :-)
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