"19" orders

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"19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:52 am

I found this while Googling "railroad train orders." They hadn't changed much by the time I used them on the Pennsy in the 1960s.

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirrphotos/ ... form19.htm
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Re: "19" orders

Postby DaveBarraza » Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:18 pm

Nice page!

I see the "new" Form A, and I have a question...

Does every LIRR train require a From A to begin it's trip, or in 262 territory is it enough for the Conductor to call for orders before departure? (e.g. leaving NY Penn or Ronkonkoma)
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Re: "19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:26 pm

I worked "C" tower in Penn Station New York a few times in 1958, and you just pulled up the signal and the train went. If the train was going to go Line 1, you had to give it to "JO." It would have killed rush hour if you had to give departing trains clearance cards and train orders. I didn't work in New York much, and the train director at " A" only gave me an order once, and I was working at "JO" that time.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby EM2000 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:21 am

Back then you had a Current of Traffic in the lines.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:45 am

EM2000 wrote:Back then you had a Current of Traffic in the lines.

Yes. I guess we had rule 261 on all four East River tunnels and worked with "F" tower to change traffic.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby DaveBarraza » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:51 am

Wait...

"Current of Traffic" = 251, no? Which means once you reversed the traffic authority to enter block would be something other than simply a signal. -Or was it set up with the entering home signal displaying an absolute clear?

I'm away from my old ETT's at the moment, so can't check the TTSI for Zone A.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby amtrakhogger » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:49 pm

From what I heard from the old timers is Lines 1&3 were 251 East while Lines 2&4 were 251 West from JO/C to F. But they had an absolute bock signal to run against the current w/o a train order.
"I will stop at St. Avold."
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Re: "19" orders

Postby Publius Plunkett » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:50 pm

There wasn't a Current of Traffic in the East River tunnels. They didn't have automatic block signalling in both directions. Rule 261 was in effect (no current of traffic), but you received a manual block signal one way and automatic block signals the other way. The Mainline west of Jamaica was similar to that. In a nutshell, the signals superceded superiority in both directions (Rule 261). Where there is a Current of Traffic, the signal supercedes superiority in one direction and a Train Order will supercede superiority in the other direction.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:37 pm

My recollection is that we could run either way in all four tunnels. For instance, to run east in Line 2', "F" had to have his traffic leaver east, (his machine's interlocking preventing him from pulling up a westbound signal into Line 2,) then the operator at "JO" could swing his traffic lever east, and then pull up signals into Line 2. No train orders required.
We had the same arrangement on the Pennsy New York Division. Tracks 1 and 4 were 251; you needed an order to go against the current of traffic. The inside tracks, 2 and 3, were 261, and you reversed traffic on them the way I described, working with the towers on either side of you.
I dug up PC Eastern Region timetable No. 7 dated 1971, thanks to Multimodalways.org
http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/rail ... 4-1971.pdf
Page 250 shows the current of traffic between Harold and JO or C west, east, west, east for tracks 4, 3, 2, 1. We didn't work with Harold, only gave him reports. F would route the trains to him.
Page 374 shows rule 261 in effect on all four tunnels, and manual block rules 305 to 316, and 319 to 342 in effect.
Here are Pennsy rules if you want to read those manual block rules. http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/B ... k1956.html
Here's a PC rule book for comparison. Unfortunately it's missing a page with some manual block rules on it. http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/rail ... 8-1968.pdf
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Re: "19" orders

Postby EM2000 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:46 pm

Just want to make sure I understand this, the East River tunnels from day one were always 261? And there was never a COT on the mainline between Harold and Jamaica?
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Re: "19" orders

Postby DaveBarraza » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:51 am

Thanks all for the discussion here.

Pages 374 and 375 in the posted TTSI tell more of the story. My interpretation: The tracks were directionally controlled, but there was a specified "normal direction" to use them in for regular use, since they were only signaled for headway in one direction.


Column 2: 261 is in effect - there was traffic locking enforcing the direction of travel in the tubes and "signals govern" - note it just says "block signal" without specifying

Column 5: Manual Block Rules for movements against the current of traffic (i.e. the Non-Normal {Reverse} Direction). Also see Note A about rule 334: "Can't use hand signals for Manual Block Proceed" - in this case the home signals granting entrance against the normal direction are manual block signals as well as home signals.

Column 7: Automatic Block Signal System rules, in this case for the normal direction of running, so trains can follow closely for maximum throughput and headway performance.

*Column 8 is not checked* which jibes with the above, there are no automatic block signals running "against the grain" -it's just one big long manual block.

Column 9: Cab Signaling (but only in the normal direction (10 not checked)


Cheers, Dave
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Re: "19" orders

Postby philipmartin » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:38 am

Thank you, Dave. I was wondering why manual block rules were in effect, and directions specified, when 261 was also in effect. It's more than fifty years since I was doing that, so my memory needs a little help.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby Kelly&Kelly » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:12 am

So when operating into the tunnel under manual block rules, were you given a green flag by the operator in addition to the signal to convey the condition of the block?
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Re: "19" orders

Postby DaveBarraza » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:59 pm

Kelly&Kelly wrote:So when operating into the tunnel under manual block rules, were you given a green flag by the operator in addition to the signal to convey the condition of the block?


I think at a traditional manual block station, like for example the pre-50's Block Office in Hampton Bays, using a flag was an option that was presented in the rule book. I read the note in the PC timetable as saying, for moves between C-JO and F the flag or hand signal is *NOT* an option, you have to pull up the interlocking home signal signal to give the proceed.
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Re: "19" orders

Postby ExCon90 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:26 pm

philipmartin wrote:Thank you, Dave. I was wondering why manual block rules were in effect, and directions specified, when 261 was also in effect. It's more than fifty years since I was doing that, so my memory needs a little help.

I think manual block was added in stages; i.e., "in the beginning" there was 251 eastbound in Lines 1 and 3, and westbound in 2 and 4, requiring a lot of paperwork to run against traffic (for which there was no time in the circumstances); next they changed it to 261 to make movements possible in either direction on signal indication alone, but possibly to reduce expense they only put in manual block for the reverse direction (for one thing, they only needed a manual-block signal at the beginning and one distant signal at braking distance from the end, displaying Caution if the home signal was at Stop). As Publius Plunkett pointed out, they also had the same thing between QUEEN and DIVIDE. Eventually they went the whole route and put in automatic for both directions, which among other things permitted following movements between block stations, not possible under manual block.
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