Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation One-Seat Ride to JFK

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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby NIMBYkiller » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:56 pm

workextra wrote:The overall with of the route would need winding and guard rails installed to prevent a bus from rolling off into their yards.
Also no bus will be able to clear at any speed greater then 20mph any of the bridges on the abandoned section.

Not that I'm for a busway, but what exactly would require the buses to slow down for the bridges that wouldn't require the trains to slow down for them? If it's width, the bridges can be replaced if necessary (How wide are the trackways on the bridges?). You'd be surprised how fast us bus drivers go through some narrow spots...it's kinda fun :wink: Also, why would it need guard rails to prevent the bus from rolling off? If the bus is staying in its lane, where the hell else is it going? And where on the ROW would need widening? Buses are narrower than rail cars last I checked.

workextra wrote:Returning LIRR to the rockaway park will have profound benifits of those commuters with a direct connection to the sort train, Atlantic branch fornservce to Brooklyn and points east. As well as their expressway to New York with the "rock" not tying into the main line till the Win curve.

workextra wrote:The rockaway beach branch until you reach Hammals is all in zone 1. So the fare is not that much higher for those commuters.

workextra wrote:At Hammals, if you go rockaway park, it's zone 1 and far rock it's done 3, with far rock being zone 3. (City terminal)

Current subway fare is $2.75 vs $6.00 off peak/$8.25 peak for LIRR within zone 1 (with no free transfer to the subway). Zone 3 to 1 is currently $7.25 off peak, $10.00 peak. That is a huge difference on all levels! If service to the Rockaways was to be reverted back to the LIRR, an entirely new fare structure would have to be implemented. What I would do is split the current zone 1 Queens and Brooklyn stations into a new Zone 2. Leave NYP and GCT as Zone 1 on their own. Leave Zone 3 stops as is. Single ride fares are equivalent to the subway (currently $2.75) for travel within the same zone, travel to the adjacent zone is the equivalent of city ticket (currently $4.25), and travel between zones 1 and 3 is the equivalent of the express bus fare (currently $6.50). Even that though, would probably be a heavy burden for a large percentage of the Rockaways. And assuming the Van Wyck Expressway is the dividing line between Zone 3 and current zone 1 (new zone 2), extending that line down to the Rockaways puts Beach 25th St and Mott Av in Zone 3, so they're still stuck with an increase of more than double the current subway fare. On the monthly level it's not nearly as bad, but you're still looking at $116.50 for a monthly Metrocard vs $184 for a zone 1 monthly and $218 for a zone 3-1 monthly, an increase of $67.50-$101.50 per month. A large part of the Rockaways is filled with people living on public assistance (city housing, etc) and would not be able to afford an increase like that, especially those who would fall in zone 3.

workextra wrote:And a special rockaway pinsular ticket validly all day between the short stops (city ticket)

$4.25 for LIRR within the Rockaways vs $2.75 for the Q22, or whatever the dollar vans charge now? You won't be seeing anyone riding within the Rockaways at that comparison.

workextra wrote:Tickets sold to New York could have resident pricing options as well.

And who is going to cover the loss to the LIRR? This is the same thing as when some council person suggested subway fare on all LIRR stops in city limits.

workextra wrote:A creative adjustment could also result in service via the lower Montauk then swing onto the rock for service east or west.
This creates a bypass to the mainline between Jay and Win. and would get them out of jams.

How on earth does the Lower Montauk offer an alt for the mainline between Jay and Win? The Lower Montauk does not connect with the East River Tubes nor does it connect to the 63rd St tunnel for GCT.

SwingMan wrote:Except the Hempstead Branch goes through Garden City, and the Far Rockaway through Five Towns. Without those places and the people who live in them these branches would be expendable. They create operational limitations (i.e. Queens Interlocking). Rockaway Beach and those communities will never be able to drum up support for anything more than what they have been handed.

YamaOfParadise wrote:Regardless, I don't know how the spur to Rockaway Park would fit into LIRR re-activation of the subway portions of the Rockaway Beach Branch. It's already a shuttle service for the subway, so I don't know it'd fit into the LIRR again.

Not ALL of the Rockaways is poor, but generally I agree, no way the community as a whole could afford LIRR service as the fares are currently structured (although once you factor in the other neighborhoods between Rego Park and Howard Beach, it may be another story). They'd have to restructure the entire fare structure, especially on the pay per ride level. Not sure how much more you can discount the current zone 1 and zone 3 monthly tickets, but they'd have to include a free transfer to NYCT. Also, they could run it so that trains from NYP/GCT could run express to Broad Channel, then all stops to Valley Stream. That allows it to cover five towns as well as the Rockaways. Does anyone have any old schedules that could compare what the running times would be for the various 5 towns stops? Local service south of Whitepot could run to Rockaway Park.

DogBert wrote:There is the possibility of connecting it to the queens blvd. subway (small provisions were made for it), but this would really add a lot of cost (and probably some building demolition). That subway route is pretty overtaxed as it is at the moment so logistically it wouldn't be a good choice.

A Queens Blvd local could be routed down the RBB (Let's just say the M, which would have to be made full time full length, not just the stubs it runs on the weekends and late nights), leaving the other local to cover the remaining Queens Blvd local stops. The main concern, however, is that this will create an influx of people transferring to the express at Roosevelt/74th, which is already severely overcrowded. The counter argument to that is the majority of these people are already doing this, just that they're coming in off the Q53 and other Woodhaven Blvd buses.
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby TUNNELRAT » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:03 am

HI,I,M TUNNELRAT AND THIS IS MY FIRST POSTING HERE.TO ANSWER JEFF SMITHS QUESTION ABOUT THE LIRR PLAN TO REACTIVATE THE ROCKAWAY `S FORGOTTEN SPUR,I SAW THE CONTRACT DRAWINGS IN THE HILLSIDE FACILITY`S BLUEPRINT ROOM ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO.IT WAS TO BE A JOINT LIRR/SUBWAY OPERATION USING A HYBRED LIRR/SUBWAY TRAIN/THE MONTAUK DIVISION WAS TO BE THIRD RAILED THRU FOREST PARK WHERE A SINGLE TRACK TUNNEL WAS TO BE CONSTRUCTED TO THE "FORGETTEN SPUR"SOUTHBOUND.5 NEW STATIONS WERE TO BE BUILT ON THE ROW.UPON ENTERING AIRPORT PROPERTY THERE WAS TO BE AN INSPECTION SHED AND A 2-TRACK ROW THAT WAS TO END AT A STUB STATION.ON THE EAST BOUND END THERE WAS TO BE BUILT A SHORT TUNNEL 2 TRACK TUNNEL E/B UNDER 66TH.AVE. TO CONNECT INTO EXSISTING TRANSIT AUTHORITY TUNNELS BUILT TOWARDS THE LIRR AT WHITEPOT JUNCTION FOR A 1933 PLANNED TAKEOVER OF THE ROCKAWAY DIV.AND CONVERSION INTO A SUBWAY LINE.THERE IS TRACK,3RD RAIL AND SIGNALS IN ONE OF THE TUNNELS HEADING TOWARD THE LIRR,I,VE SEEN THE AS BUILT BLUEPRINTS
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby TUNNELRAT » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:18 am

sorry for the pause,i,m using a library pc and my time ran out.this was supposed to be a superexpress using subway tracks to get into lower manhattan.the reason the project was cancelled was money. the city went broke at this time and all subway projects were put on hold.this project wasn`t ever reactivated.it was to be a lirr project with ,afaik,no subway equipment using this route. being that I don`t have my own pc my responces will be delayed.have patience as I will get back to you when I can.I hope everyone found this brief explanation on the rockaway reactivation informative and interesting.
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby Kelly&Kelly » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:33 pm

TunnelRat, it's nice to read your informative post. Welcome here! But weren't these supposed to be monorails using maglev technology?
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby DogBert » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:35 pm

I think this news bit wasn't posted here yet - goldfeder drummed up the cash in the state budget to study reopening these tracks:
http://www.qgazette.com/news/2016-03-23 ... kaway.html

Thus, this reactivation is finally going to get the deeper look it deserves, and that should hopefully push back against the park advocates ridiculous 'high line of queens' plans.

Hey Tunnelrat- can we connect this to 76th street? :)
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby BM6569 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:05 am

This gave me a laugh. It's as if all there people were there long before the railroad!


"The Rego Park/Forest Hills area already has an active LIRR line running through it which causes my constituents grief to no end. I am constantly confronted by local residents and business owners complaining of the noise and vibration emanating from this rail service and the trash in and around the tracks.

Local homeowners and apartment owners have consistently told me about conversations that need to be stopped in mid-sentence when a train goes by. Sleep is often interrupted, dinnerware vibrates on tables, and windows facing the railroad are rarely opened. As a result, I am a regular correspondent with current LIRR President Patrick Nowakowski, and routinely “harassed” his predecessor, former LIRR President Thomas Prendergast, with complaints."

http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/news/201 ... ATION.html
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby BobLI » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:22 am

I wonder how all the trash along the tracks got there? It sure wasnt from people on the passing trains throwing it from open windows! Perhaps the people along the ROW find it very convenient to just toss it over the fence? Hmmmmm.
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby nyandw » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:22 pm

It's always interesting when folks buy real estate near/by the tracks or an airport such as Islip MacArthur for less money then in a more "desirable" locale that the hue and cry begins with complaints to the local pols. Another example of not taking personal responsibility for one's actions and expecting others to fix/pay for it.

Opinion: Assemblyman Phil Goldfeder's (D - Ozone Park) feasibility study that you and I will pay for is another ploy and taxpayer rip-off.... Sad :(
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby Jeff Smith » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:13 am

Interesting article: LTV Squad

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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby DogBert » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:42 pm

That one is actually part of a series covering most of the route:
http://ltvsquad.com/rockaway-beach-branch/

There are many compelling reasons for reactivation. What the project needs is a much larger groundswell of vocal support. Otherwise the ROW will become a park that very few asked for.
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby BM6569 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:49 am

One seat ride to JFK via Rockaway Beach Line? This group shows one way it could be done. Cuomo would like to see a one seat ride to JFK from the city. Even though it's unlikely, it sure is interesting to think about. The line is intact and the unused portion puts you fairly close to JFK.

http://library.rpa.org/pdf/RPA-Creating ... to-JFK.pdf
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation One-Seat Ride to JFK

Postby Jeff Smith » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:42 pm

I merged a bunch of stuff in to give everyone a taste of the history of the line, and the various proposals for a "Queensway", etc. This is to go with the recent proposals to reactivate the line as well.

News: Queens Tribune

A One-Seat Rockaway Ride To JFK

One of the many improvements that Governor Andrew Cuomo announced last week as part of the reimagining of JFK Airport is investigating the feasibility of a one-seat ride from Penn Station to JFK Airport, which could possibly include the reactivation of the Rockaway Rail Line.

It will be part of $1.5 billion-$2 billion in spending by the State Department of Transportation to improve the roadways leading to JFK, according to the governor’s statement.

The Regional Plan Association (RPA), a 90-year-old urban research and advocacy organization, released a report of five possible one-seat routes from Penn Station to JFK on Jan. 6, a couple of days after the governor made his announcement.

One of the options it explored is using the Rockaway Rail Line, which runs north and south for 4.8 miles from Rego Park to Howard Beach. It was once operated by the LIRR and discontinued in the early 1960s after ridership dwindled.
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation One-Seat Ride to JFK

Postby DogBert » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:47 pm

I wish these papers would report better. Ridership dwindled in no small part due to the very limited service offered by a financially troubled, pre-MTA LIRR. 'Ridership dwindled' makes it sound like it was the riders fault.
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation One-Seat Ride to JFK

Postby MattW » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:22 pm

Would it be possible to upgrade the existing Airtrain to FRA-standards, then use small FRA-compliant EMUs over the existing rail network into Atlantic, Penn or GCT? Capacity is an issue, but would something like that even work?
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Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation One-Seat Ride to JFK

Postby mark777 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:15 am

I think that a one seat ride into the city from JFK is not really the most feasible solution, especially after AirTrain came to play. While I seriously still feel that the reopening of the Rockaway Beach Line is necessary, especially when one considers that the line is still mostly intact, I think that there could be a better use for it. I personally think that if you were to run the LIRR back on it as far as the Howard Beach station using the two center tracks could offer a slightly faster ride into midtown than say taking the AirTrain to Jamaica, but we are talking about mins here. If you want, add in the former connection to the Atlantic Terminal and you have a quicker connection to downtown. Connecting the present Airtrain to say the subway is gonna give you that one seat ride but not with any time savings. Any one seat solution that will include faster travel times will require using the LIRR or a brand new and very costly separate right of way that nobody in the world of US politics will be willing to invest in. Here is an even better idea, finish the 2nd Ave subway first. in DC, the silver line is being extended all the way to Dulles and slightly beyond, and it isn't taking 90 years to do it either.
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