Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation One-Seat Ride to JFK

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

Moderator: Liquidcamphor

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby NIMBYkiller » Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:05 am

For the longest time, I was critical of Airtrain not providing a one seat ride, but it really is a better set up. There's movement between the terminals, to the rental cars, and to a major transportation hub all in one mode. When I went to Sweden, I took the express train from Stockholm Central to the airport, and realized this only works if the airport has only 1 or 2 central terminals and little movement between those terminals. Zurich is set up similarly, with 1 main terminal and then 1 satellite one. The rail station is at the main terminal, but if you're flying out of the satellite one (SWISS), then you have to take a tram. JFK is (as it currently stands), what, 6 non-connected terminals? A one seat ride set up is far more practical at an airport like Orlando International (1 central building for check in, security, passenger drop off/pick up, etc) or LaGuardia (1 stop for C/D and 1 stop for central). Airtrain running to Jamaica gives far more options than a service via the RBB ever would have, even with stops along the way. And again, JFK is just too big for it to have made sense logistically speaking.
NIMBYkiller
 
Posts: 1366
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Port Washington

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby Head-end View » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:26 pm

And as an added attraction, you have a spectacular view out the huge front window of the Airtrain. Don't forget your sunglasses!
Head-end View
 
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:00 pm
Location: The second row on a SEPTA Silverliner V

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby DogBert » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:18 am

Completely disagree. Air train is useless if you live in NYC. The E or A trains connecting to it are not reliable, and crowded at all hours of the day and night. Carrying luggage on a crowded train will get you some sharp elbows and dirty looks these days. One shouldn't have to face being treated like an animal in a cattle car just to get to the airport. Besides, the last thing you want when you absolutely, have to make a flight is to gamble on the subway not taking a * on you. (LIRR to Jamaica? Probably just as bad. I avoid Penn like the plague - and it can take an hour just to get to Penn via subway).

The lack of a one seat ride is part of why the LIE, Van Wyck, and other roads are traffic filled nightmares, with resulting added air pollution.

NYC needs more transit options. Even if the rock branch never connects to JFK, the commuters in those neighborhoods want their right of way to be transit. There are only a handful (50 people, tops) who actually want the tracks to be made into a park. The park plan is being lead by a politically connected crony running a do-nothing nonprofit. He doesn't even live in the area. Most people who live next to the tracks definitely do not want the park. The local community board recommended a busway (which is dumb since it wouldn't really help commute times- but it shows how anti-park they are)
DogBert
 
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:08 pm

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby workextra » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:32 pm

DB, a busway? Are they for freak? The overall with of the route would need winding and guard rails installed to prevent a bus from rolling off into their yards.
Also no bus will be able to clear at any speed greater then 20mph any of the bridges on the abandoned section.
I have a friend who lives a few houses north of metropolitan avenue adjacent to the ROW.
Some neighbors have enlarged yards because of it. Hidden in this green urban jungle are the PRR power poles and a load of poison ivy. There is no remains of what was the old parkside station which today would require the costly replacement and raising of the 1908 span over metropolitan avenue.

Truthfully and it's been beaten here before. The rockaway beach Branch is LIRR and historically has been. The subway was installed there in an era when it was not practical to invest in the LIRRs return there due to the cost of rebuilding the bridge over Jamaica bay.


Returning LIRR to the rockaway park will have profound benifits of those commuters with a direct connection to the sort train, Atlantic branch fornservce to Brooklyn and points east. As well as their expressway to New York with the "rock" not tying into the main line till the Win curve.

A creative adjustment could also result in service via the lower Montauk then swing onto the rock for service east or west.
This creates a bypass to the mainline between Jay and Win. and would get them out of jams.

I'm for full conversion to LIRR-'no fact the distance between far rock and Mott avenue could be spanned with NO problems. Start the new grade at the crossing by Inwood. And go up from there. You'll be above the building (old yard) without major problems. Simply build through it. And make the connection. Re name Mott avenue into its rightful "Far Rockaway"
And both routes run to rock park. Therefore creating another larger LIRR yard for EMU storage.

There will be ney Sayers but this is the most effective and streamlined and non half assesd way to do it.

Look at a map, there's no reason not to do it this way. Saves LIRR aggravation too.
workextra
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby NIMBYkiller » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:03 pm

If airtrain is useless if you live in NYC, then it's useless all together unless your going between terminals or to the rental car facilities. The set up now gives you the most options, especially in your "if the subway takes a $h!t on you" scenario. As it stands, you get the option of the E and every single non-PW Branch LIRR train out of NYP (except for the handful of trains that skip Jamaica) to get there. I'm sure that's a hell of a lot more service than a dedicated train would run. Soon you'll get the same out of GCT, and you've also got the option of the Atlantic Branch. And if none of those do it for you, you've got the A. And if your destination is Long Island, well, just about every non-PW branch train stops at Jamaica so you've got the best selection possible there as well. If it were a single dedicated service, the moment that dedicated service goes poop, there's no other option. Any connections to LI would have to be made at Woodside which has far less service. And there's still the problem of movement within the airport.

As for LIRR being restored on the Rockaway Beach Branch, the biggest problem I see is that much of the Rockaways can't afford whatever the LIRR fare would likely be. The Rockaways is this crummy catch-22. Subway ridership isn't all that high and the subway is a long slow ride, even as express under Fulton St. LIRR would be far faster and I'd imagine offer headways more in line with the ridership numbers, but the price point would be too high. As I understand it, before the subway came, Rockaway was more of a resort community. It wasn't until the subway came that a lot of the projects went up and the area became poorer, no? Then again...Hempstead isn't the most wealthy area. What's ridership out of there? I know a lot of people take the N6 to the subway because of the price point, so I'm sure there's validity to what I'm pointing out.
NIMBYkiller
 
Posts: 1366
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Port Washington

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby SwingMan » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:11 am

Except the Hempstead Branch goes through Garden City, and the Far Rockaway through Five Towns. Without those places and the people who live in them these branches would be expendable. They create operational limitations (i.e. Queens Interlocking). Rockaway Beach and those communities will never be able to drum up support for anything more than what they have been handed.
SwingMan
 
Posts: 2243
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby workextra » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:05 pm

The LIRR reaquiaition of the rockaway beach branch and re connection to Mott avenue (far rockway) would have its up's and down. And yes price points is a whol different topic. You have the rockaway park , Howard beach, Brooklyn manor and parkside, and Rego park areas that would also be supporting the faster more direct service not just the rockaways.
Remember the branch was 4 tracks from Ozone to Hamalton beach. Where it went to 2 track for the bridge.

With 261 signaling you restor 3 tracks in that area , and you can run your rockaway flyers during the rush hours, as well as the locals.. based on today's servcje style the need for a change at ozone park is not necessary.
But rather locals to Hamalton beach then flyers to rockaway park.

The rockaway beach branch until you reach Hammals is all in zone 1. So the fare is not that much higher for those commuters.

At Hammals, if you go rockaway park, it's zone 1 and far rock it's done 3, with far rock being zone 3. (City terminal)

And a special rockaway pinsular ticket validly all day between the short stops (city ticket)
All those stations are turnstile equipped and Should remain that way. It relieves the LIRR from. Loosing fares there.
Tickets sold to New York could have resident pricing options as well.
All those stations would have automated fare collection. Beginning with wood haven junction/woodhaven. The remaining stations remains LIRR ticket punching.
There are options here. Political crimes will prevent them from being fully realized.
workextra
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby YamaOfParadise » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:38 pm

If the roadbed was 4 tracks Ozone Park <-> Hamilton Beach, what about keeping the Subway up until Howard Beach/JFK? The subway could serve Aqueduct North/Conduit Ave, with both subway and LIRR serving Howard Beach/JFK and maybe Aqueduct Racetrack.

Regardless, I don't know how the spur to Rockaway Park would fit into LIRR re-activation of the subway portions of the Rockaway Beach Branch. It's already a shuttle service for the subway, so I don't know it'd fit into the LIRR again.

I also wonder how much it would actually cost to un-convert the subway portions; I imagine it would be a pittance compared to the disused portions (or the re-connection of the Far Rockaway Branch).
Consider contributing detailed railway data to OpenStreetMap for use in OpenRailwayMap!
User avatar
YamaOfParadise
 
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:36 pm
Location: Middlesex County, Connecticut

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby Kelly&Kelly » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:36 pm

This exercise reminds me of one gentleman (I use the word loosely) who would materialize at every LIRR public hearing toting armloads of tubes containing maps.

Without regard to the meeting's subject matter, he would use his three minutes to address the distinguished panel about his "proposed extensions of the Long Island Rail Road". He would unroll a giant road map of Long Island and point to countless red and blue crayon lines drawn from and to virtually everywhere.

His presentation would be punctuated by his reaching into his jacket pocket to pull out a handful of lint-entrained lunch meat to munch while presenting.

Oh yes, those were the days.
Kelly&Kelly
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:50 am

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby Jeff Smith » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:46 pm

I think that skepticism is warranted. I'd just add "I report, you decide". The exercises can be fun, provided we remember they are exercises. These are proposals, nothing more, nothing less, until they get funded. Until then, they are enrichment opportunities for connected consultants.
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator
Jeff Smith
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7444
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby workextra » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:03 pm

I've said it before that we have beaten this topic silly over the years.
I'm a supporter for full LIRR re activation due to the fact that it creates more jobs and more work for LIRR.
Compared to the 60 era the branch today would provide a superior service under LIRR then NYCT.
There's ample room and capacity for such service.

Some trains direct to Brooklyn others through to New York. But either way the line can provide faster express service for a little more per ride then the subway.
Though the MTA has done a great job interesting subway mentality at the LIRR. The LIRR still provides a better and smoother, and at times faster ride then the NYCT.
Under the LIRR service from white pot JCT Hamalton Beach would have a minimum 70mph MAS.
With full restoration I don't see why we can't keep it at such right over the bridge until it needs to be slowed down.
The curves at HAMMALS are good for 40mph, not restricted speed. The problem with this will be the design of the bridge NYCT built for subway service and weather or not this bridge can be re engineered for LIRR service .


Out of the following the rockway brand branch is the most likely to be intertained to full reactivation.
A) Whitestone- a necessity either as the No queens extension or as LIRR.
B) CRRLI. Possibly including it's Jamaica bypass"'through northern queens. (Highly doubt this
C) Nassau- West Hempstead connection.
D) MR-PT.
E) Wading River Extension
The above losted projects stand less of a chance then seeing the former rockway beach branch brought back into LIRR

Keep in mind ESA will likely be a century behind time before any of this happens.
workextra
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby DogBert » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:04 am

There is the possibility of connecting it to the queens blvd. subway (small provisions were made for it), but this would really add a lot of cost (and probably some building demolition). That subway route is pretty overtaxed as it is at the moment so logistically it wouldn't be a good choice.

The connection to the Atlantic ave branch is still down there - all that is needed is kicking out the school bus lot, removing the fill, and re-installing switches.
DogBert
 
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:08 pm

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby NIMBYkiller » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:56 pm

workextra wrote:The overall with of the route would need winding and guard rails installed to prevent a bus from rolling off into their yards.
Also no bus will be able to clear at any speed greater then 20mph any of the bridges on the abandoned section.

Not that I'm for a busway, but what exactly would require the buses to slow down for the bridges that wouldn't require the trains to slow down for them? If it's width, the bridges can be replaced if necessary (How wide are the trackways on the bridges?). You'd be surprised how fast us bus drivers go through some narrow spots...it's kinda fun :wink: Also, why would it need guard rails to prevent the bus from rolling off? If the bus is staying in its lane, where the hell else is it going? And where on the ROW would need widening? Buses are narrower than rail cars last I checked.

workextra wrote:Returning LIRR to the rockaway park will have profound benifits of those commuters with a direct connection to the sort train, Atlantic branch fornservce to Brooklyn and points east. As well as their expressway to New York with the "rock" not tying into the main line till the Win curve.

workextra wrote:The rockaway beach branch until you reach Hammals is all in zone 1. So the fare is not that much higher for those commuters.

workextra wrote:At Hammals, if you go rockaway park, it's zone 1 and far rock it's done 3, with far rock being zone 3. (City terminal)

Current subway fare is $2.75 vs $6.00 off peak/$8.25 peak for LIRR within zone 1 (with no free transfer to the subway). Zone 3 to 1 is currently $7.25 off peak, $10.00 peak. That is a huge difference on all levels! If service to the Rockaways was to be reverted back to the LIRR, an entirely new fare structure would have to be implemented. What I would do is split the current zone 1 Queens and Brooklyn stations into a new Zone 2. Leave NYP and GCT as Zone 1 on their own. Leave Zone 3 stops as is. Single ride fares are equivalent to the subway (currently $2.75) for travel within the same zone, travel to the adjacent zone is the equivalent of city ticket (currently $4.25), and travel between zones 1 and 3 is the equivalent of the express bus fare (currently $6.50). Even that though, would probably be a heavy burden for a large percentage of the Rockaways. And assuming the Van Wyck Expressway is the dividing line between Zone 3 and current zone 1 (new zone 2), extending that line down to the Rockaways puts Beach 25th St and Mott Av in Zone 3, so they're still stuck with an increase of more than double the current subway fare. On the monthly level it's not nearly as bad, but you're still looking at $116.50 for a monthly Metrocard vs $184 for a zone 1 monthly and $218 for a zone 3-1 monthly, an increase of $67.50-$101.50 per month. A large part of the Rockaways is filled with people living on public assistance (city housing, etc) and would not be able to afford an increase like that, especially those who would fall in zone 3.

workextra wrote:And a special rockaway pinsular ticket validly all day between the short stops (city ticket)

$4.25 for LIRR within the Rockaways vs $2.75 for the Q22, or whatever the dollar vans charge now? You won't be seeing anyone riding within the Rockaways at that comparison.

workextra wrote:Tickets sold to New York could have resident pricing options as well.

And who is going to cover the loss to the LIRR? This is the same thing as when some council person suggested subway fare on all LIRR stops in city limits.

workextra wrote:A creative adjustment could also result in service via the lower Montauk then swing onto the rock for service east or west.
This creates a bypass to the mainline between Jay and Win. and would get them out of jams.

How on earth does the Lower Montauk offer an alt for the mainline between Jay and Win? The Lower Montauk does not connect with the East River Tubes nor does it connect to the 63rd St tunnel for GCT.

SwingMan wrote:Except the Hempstead Branch goes through Garden City, and the Far Rockaway through Five Towns. Without those places and the people who live in them these branches would be expendable. They create operational limitations (i.e. Queens Interlocking). Rockaway Beach and those communities will never be able to drum up support for anything more than what they have been handed.

YamaOfParadise wrote:Regardless, I don't know how the spur to Rockaway Park would fit into LIRR re-activation of the subway portions of the Rockaway Beach Branch. It's already a shuttle service for the subway, so I don't know it'd fit into the LIRR again.

Not ALL of the Rockaways is poor, but generally I agree, no way the community as a whole could afford LIRR service as the fares are currently structured (although once you factor in the other neighborhoods between Rego Park and Howard Beach, it may be another story). They'd have to restructure the entire fare structure, especially on the pay per ride level. Not sure how much more you can discount the current zone 1 and zone 3 monthly tickets, but they'd have to include a free transfer to NYCT. Also, they could run it so that trains from NYP/GCT could run express to Broad Channel, then all stops to Valley Stream. That allows it to cover five towns as well as the Rockaways. Does anyone have any old schedules that could compare what the running times would be for the various 5 towns stops? Local service south of Whitepot could run to Rockaway Park.

DogBert wrote:There is the possibility of connecting it to the queens blvd. subway (small provisions were made for it), but this would really add a lot of cost (and probably some building demolition). That subway route is pretty overtaxed as it is at the moment so logistically it wouldn't be a good choice.

A Queens Blvd local could be routed down the RBB (Let's just say the M, which would have to be made full time full length, not just the stubs it runs on the weekends and late nights), leaving the other local to cover the remaining Queens Blvd local stops. The main concern, however, is that this will create an influx of people transferring to the express at Roosevelt/74th, which is already severely overcrowded. The counter argument to that is the majority of these people are already doing this, just that they're coming in off the Q53 and other Woodhaven Blvd buses.
NIMBYkiller
 
Posts: 1366
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Port Washington

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby TUNNELRAT » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:03 am

HI,I,M TUNNELRAT AND THIS IS MY FIRST POSTING HERE.TO ANSWER JEFF SMITHS QUESTION ABOUT THE LIRR PLAN TO REACTIVATE THE ROCKAWAY `S FORGOTTEN SPUR,I SAW THE CONTRACT DRAWINGS IN THE HILLSIDE FACILITY`S BLUEPRINT ROOM ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO.IT WAS TO BE A JOINT LIRR/SUBWAY OPERATION USING A HYBRED LIRR/SUBWAY TRAIN/THE MONTAUK DIVISION WAS TO BE THIRD RAILED THRU FOREST PARK WHERE A SINGLE TRACK TUNNEL WAS TO BE CONSTRUCTED TO THE "FORGETTEN SPUR"SOUTHBOUND.5 NEW STATIONS WERE TO BE BUILT ON THE ROW.UPON ENTERING AIRPORT PROPERTY THERE WAS TO BE AN INSPECTION SHED AND A 2-TRACK ROW THAT WAS TO END AT A STUB STATION.ON THE EAST BOUND END THERE WAS TO BE BUILT A SHORT TUNNEL 2 TRACK TUNNEL E/B UNDER 66TH.AVE. TO CONNECT INTO EXSISTING TRANSIT AUTHORITY TUNNELS BUILT TOWARDS THE LIRR AT WHITEPOT JUNCTION FOR A 1933 PLANNED TAKEOVER OF THE ROCKAWAY DIV.AND CONVERSION INTO A SUBWAY LINE.THERE IS TRACK,3RD RAIL AND SIGNALS IN ONE OF THE TUNNELS HEADING TOWARD THE LIRR,I,VE SEEN THE AS BUILT BLUEPRINTS
TUNNELRAT
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:52 am

Re: Rockaway Beach Line Reactivation

Postby TUNNELRAT » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:18 am

sorry for the pause,i,m using a library pc and my time ran out.this was supposed to be a superexpress using subway tracks to get into lower manhattan.the reason the project was cancelled was money. the city went broke at this time and all subway projects were put on hold.this project wasn`t ever reactivated.it was to be a lirr project with ,afaik,no subway equipment using this route. being that I don`t have my own pc my responces will be delayed.have patience as I will get back to you when I can.I hope everyone found this brief explanation on the rockaway reactivation informative and interesting.
TUNNELRAT
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:52 am

PreviousNext

Return to Long Island Rail Road (LIRR)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: scopelliti and 7 guests