East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby gamer4616 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:38 pm

SPEONKNY wrote:
njt/mnrrbuff wrote:Yes, that 5:09 train out of NYP on Fridays gets extremely packed. Remember, the only thing that is extra special to a railfan on the Cannonball is the drumhead on the nose of the locomotives. Other than that, the equipment is the same. Keep in mind that these trains that head to the East End have been known to have consistent delays because of overcrowdedness as a result of having to be spotted a few times at one station because many platforms on the Montauk Line can only handle six cars. The Cannonball during the peak season is 12 cars and even at 12 cars, the train is still extremely crowded.

All Hampton's trains Friday E/B and Sunday W/B are overcrowded and the short platforms have nothing to do with that. I was at Jamaica yesterday (FRI) around 5 pm and some customers were unable to board the 4:49 Montauk bound train that had originated at Hunterspoint. That train was packed with standees all the way past Patchogue. Why would you want to run a 4-car set all the way from City Zone/Jamaica to Montauk at 5 pm on a summer Friday?



There just isn't enough cars to handle the demand. I haven't heard of any discussion to purchase new or additional equipment, which is sorely needed. It's the same story every summer (the US Open at Shinnecock was another example, not nearly enough equipment to handle the demand).


Afternoon/Evening diesel departures from HPA

2708 149pm normal 8cars, 7/6 - 8 cars
656 340pm normal 3 cars, 7/6 - 3 cars
558 418pm normal 3 cars, 7/6 - 3 cars
2712 430pm normal 4 cars, 7/6 - 4 cars
2778 444pm normal 4 cars (5 cars FRI), 7/6 - 5 cars
560 459pm normal 5 cars (3 cars FRI), 7/6 - 3 cars
662 512pm normal 4 cars, 7/6 - 4 cars
664 547pm normal 6 cars (3 cars FRI), 7/6 - 3 cars
666 608pm normal 4 cars, 7/6 - 4 cars


668 and 566 are not stored during the day in LIC, so I didn't include them. 666 is cancelled 5/25 and 8/31 to provide equipment for train 9708 (318pm extra from Jamaica to Montauk). It was also cancelled during US Open week to provide extra service to US Open.

There aren't many options. Cancel 666 every friday to provide extra cars? Cars are being taken from port jeff / oyster bay to try to provide extra cars to Montauk. Last year was a little better as 664 ran using the MARC coaches, so some cars were added to 2712.

Hopefully next year the LIRR can work things out to get the MARC cars back.

Long term, as far as the next fleet purchase, I would like to see a little more flexibility.

- All locomotives for passenger service should be equipped with 3rd rail shoes for Dual Mode operation.
- All coaches should be cab cars. Each car would have a bathroom. 6 hour round trip to montauk with 1 bathroom? That would put an end to that.
Should there be a problem with the cab car on the west end, you could easily swap out a new cab car (no need to have a 2 car greenport train with 2 engines because a working cab car isn't available) or runaround it, and bury it in the middle of the consist.
- Order a surplus of locomotives and cars to provide service for the growing demand. 666 shouldn't have to be cancelled everytime there's a need for extra service.
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby Backshophoss » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:11 pm

LIRR should have spent the $$$$ need to update the C-1's to work with the C-3's
A small surge fleet of the better condition 600 vdc coaches should have been retained to cover the Greenport Scoots and Oyster Bay branch off peak
trains during the summer months with the MP15's that were setup as HEP power "packs".
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby njt/mnrrbuff » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:42 am

Having four car trains running anywhere on the Montauk Line is underkill in my opinion. People aren't just going to the Hamptons and Montauk. If you are going to Fire Island, you would need to get off at Bay Shore, Sayville, and Patchogue depending on where on Fire Island you are going. Last year, I visited a friend on Fire Island and the closest train station to his summer house was Bay Shore. Many people get off trains at Bay Shore, especially during the summer season.

Short platforms can contribute to delays. When you need to stop your consist twice and let off crowds of people, that can delay the train.
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby MACTRAXX » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:46 pm

Buff: Yes-Bay Shore, Sayville and Patchogue are busy with the Fire Island "Day Tripper" crowds
(makes me think of the classic Beatles song "Day Tripper") and make Babylon-Patchogue trains
very busy this time of year. This current weekend (July 7-8, 2018) has perfect Summer weather
in which any LIRR Beach Getaway services are going to attract large resort-bound crowds.

On busy Getaway Fridays the LIRR will sometimes have unadvertised buses on standby at
Babylon depending on how crowded Babylon-Patchogue scoot connections get. These buses
are for Bay Shore riders in particular to at least try to alleviate some of the crowd conditions.
Another way of getting to South Shore communities between Babylon and Patchogue is by way
of Suffolk Transit's S-40 bus which terminates at both the Babylon and Patchogue LIRR stations.

The Beach Getaway services that are in electrified territory: Long Beach, Freeport (bus to Jones
Beach SP) and Babylon (Suffolk Transit S-47 bus to Robert Moses SP) have less problems with
extreme crowding then the Diesel routes do having to deal with the C3 equipment limitations.

To make a difference in Diesel territory services there needs to be a substantial addition to the
fleet of new cars to make a noticeable difference and address this chronic C3 car shortage. Just
10 C1 cars (if the LIRR could reacquire them-they are split up under two owners I believe) will
not be enough when around 50 more cars are needed to maintain current Diesel services and
to possibly be able to run additional new trains to address the increases in demand...

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Last edited by MACTRAXX on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby njt/mnrrbuff » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:47 pm

I am not too surprised that those unadvertised buses come to Babylon to meet the trains. In fact, they should be doing that permanently as you have many rail options at Babylon. Plus there is direct service to NYC.

I'm not surprised about less extreme overcrowdedness for people traveling only within electrified territory.

That is true about the Suffolk County Transit S40 bus. Just remember that it operates once an hour and it doesn't stop at the ferry terminals in Bay Shore and Sayville.
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby trainbrain » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:03 pm

I wonder if it would be possible short term to remove or simple disconnect the traction motors on the M3's and use them as coaches instead of scrapping them as the M9's come in. Then when a new order of diesel equipment comes, everything can be replaced.

Metro North is likely to go with the Bombardier Multilevel design to replace the Shoreliners and that design would work for LIRR too, although the traps wouldn't be needed. For locomotives, the newest diesel out there is the Siemens Charger and it can fit into Penn. They are currently only used by MARC, Brightline, and in the west, so there is no dual mode version as of now. However, MTA would have a big enough contract that it would be worth developing one to be able to bid.

I agree that all or most cars should have a bathroom (it's every other car in the electric fleet). However, I disagree that all cars should be cab cars. They are more expensive to maintain than trailer cars, and you lose a door unless you have quarter point doors only. Having a sufficient number of cab cars vs a shortage is important. If there are a few extra it's no problem as they can be placed adjacent to the locomotive on consists with one on each end with the cab facing the back of the locomotive so there is minimal impact of losing a door.


I feel like Montauk (and summer getaway service in general) could be a very profitable operation if capacity was increased significantly where it is needed. It's the easiest way to get to anywhere on Long Island, being faster than driving or taking the bus, and far cheaper albeit slower than a helicopter or plane.
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby njt/mnrrbuff » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:35 pm

It would be nice if LIRR, MNR, and Amtrak could consider a dual mode based on the design of the Charger. I don't think all cars should be cab cars and having bathrooms on noncab cars should happen.

Yes, it would be nice for Metro North to go with the design of the Bombardier Multilevel Car to replace the Shoreliner. I think the first Shoreliners to go will be the non center door ones. They are over 30 years old.

The C3s seem to be riding well. I don't know if they all need to be replaced in the short term but it would be nice to have brand new coaches and cab cars.
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby trainbrain » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:25 pm

The oldest shoreliners are from 1983 and the newest from 1998 which is about the same age as the C3's. I've been on a C3 but when I was very young and cant really remember how they ride.

I guess one option would be for Metro North replace the entire Shoreliner fleet, but give the newer center door models to LIRR to expand the diesel fleet. Would still be short on engines, but existing trains could be lengthened. The newer ones are really not that old and the design is simple, proven, and long lasting.

Not sure why LIRR didn't get the P32 like Metro North and Amtrak as they were built around the same time.
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby MACTRAXX » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:31 pm

Buff and TB:

After reading both of your replies I will add some more insight about these subjects:

I should mention that a substantial percentage of LIRR Montauk Branch Summer riders are the
"Weekenders". They are the ones that travel east on Fridays and/or Saturday mornings and will
return centering around Sunday afternoon/evening to go west. They will stay for at least one to
two nights away at their resort destinations and then return back to the City during the week.
Bay Shore, Sayville and Patchogue are prime destinations for some of these "Weekenders".

Having standby buses at Babylon on prime getaway days at busy times has been a regular but not
advertised option that the LIRR has offered in recent years. When they are available there will be a
mention with special announcements for passengers making connections to the Patchogue Scoot.

The ST S40 bus runs half hourly all day on weekdays and hourly on Saturday and Sunday. The S40
runs via Montauk Highway (NYS 27A) directly serving downtown areas of Bay Shore, Islip, East Islip,
Oakdale and Sayville south of the LIRR on its way to Patchogue. Checking overview maps can note
about how far the Fire Island ferry terminals are from the S40 bus route.

I do agree about boosting the LIRR Diesel car fleet - which would need about 50 more bilevel cars
to adequately provide current service and allow the LIRR to address ridership growth. This can be
accomplished either by an additional equipment order or perhaps outright replacement of the C3
car fleet. I do think around 20-25 more cab cars are necessary if this new order turns out to be in
addition to the existing fleet along with a larger percentage of cars equipped with lavatories. The
new cars - if they are to supplement the C3 fleet - should be built fully compatible with them.

Dutch mentions in the M3 retirement topic just why converting M3 cars for Diesel-hauled service
would not be an easy proposition: Different airbrakes and couplers, no 480 volt train or traction
control lines, no 480 volt equivalent - MA supplies 220 volt 3 phase power. The current age of
the M3's: 32-33 years old built 1985-86 works against them to be cost effective.

There is an RFP at this time for a NYS three agency dual mode locomotive that would replace all
the existing Amtrak Empire, Metro North and LIRR (DM30) units. This has the potential to save
a large amount of money as compared to three separate orders. All three versions will be built
to meet the specific needs and service applications for each railroad.

The trouble with the DE and DM30 locomotives is that they are of a special application type and
would have little if any resale interest outside the LIRR. With a new larger fleet of dual modes in
service the older dual modes could be converted into more straight DE30 units for added service.

The DE and DM30 locomotives are now around 20 years old along with the C3 fleet this year.
I mentioned this in case anyone is unaware of the age of the LIRR bilevel cars.

This should offer further insight on these subjects...MACTRAXX
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby SPEONKNY » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:54 am

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:Having four car trains running anywhere on the Montauk Line is underkill in my opinion. People aren't just going to the Hamptons and Montauk. If you are going to Fire Island, you would need to get off at Bay Shore, Sayville, and Patchogue depending on where on Fire Island you are going. Last year, I visited a friend on Fire Island and the closest train station to his summer house was Bay Shore. Many people get off trains at Bay Shore, especially during the summer season...

Yes, a significant number of weekend travelers utilize Bayshore, Sayville and Patchogue for the ferries. Note however, that the 4:30 pm 2712 train with only 4 cars accomodates those stops and attracts those riders, while the earlier 1:49 train with 8 cars does not, and actually proceeds directly to Zone 14.

Is it really more appealing to riders to be able to leave at 1:49 instead of 4:30, or is it mainly the attraction of an off-peak fare that fills the 1:49 train?
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby trainbrain » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:09 am

I suggested converting the M3's in this thread. Definitely not practical due to differences in the couplers and electrical components.

Metro North has 60 Shoreliner 4's built between 1996 and 1998. If they were to replace that fleet, those 60 cars would have plenty of life left in them and would be able to bring the LIRR diesel fleet up to the size it should be. It doesn't solve the problem of too few locomotives, but would be able to lengthen existing trains and if the MP locomotives could be used for passenger service again, they could run on the Greenport Scoot, freeing up a DE30.

I think the C3's are good for at least another 10 years, and it wouldn't make sense to get a small order of new cars to grow the fleet.
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby edflyerssn007 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:02 pm

Do you guys think that with a possible charger purchase that they would also look to purchase additional bilevels? Also how much additional service could be provided just by adding single levels such as the Marc’s and Shoreliners.

Also does anyone know if there are any plans to extend electrification, let’s say to Sayville, where the current two track alignment ends?
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby Backshophoss » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:10 pm

There's a 3 way design contest on the next gen(roughly based on the Charger) with Amtrak,MN and LIRR,this will become a joint build for all
3 parties involved, At present they are dealing with the weight issue.
MN seems to thinking of using the BBD MLV-II design as the next gen Shoreliner,with ConnDot tagging along,this could become the C-5 Coach and
Cab Car on LIRR. This will be a joint build with MN/ConnDOT.
Hopefullly LIRR will build a yard at the Morris Park shop site to store some of the C-3's as a surge fleet.
and build a Shop to maintain the C-5's and the remaining C-3's,Hillside is overloaded keeping the M-3's,7''s alive along with the M-9 testing/in sevice
debugging....
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Re: East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

Postby ConstanceR46 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:38 pm

I personally think the C3s and DEs should become a off-peak and scoot fleet, leaving newer SC(DM?)44s and C-5s to power most trains into Penn. Also; the P-72/5 conversions worked due to the fact the cars were new, had a lot of life and didn't have the best track record as MUs (the compatibility req. killed them off while the ACMUs never had the same fate afaik). M3s are relatively old and have been heavily used and abused on the LIRR; in addition to most technical troubles as already mentioned by Dutch. P32s can't clear some obstacles on the LIRR (AFAIK it's Jamacia's platforms.)
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