Lower Montauk Division Discussion

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby railfan365 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:42 am

BobLI wrote:Is the definition of a "deadhead" an employee riding on a pass while not on duty or transferring between runs on that equipment?


It seems that there are several definitions going around for deadhead.
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby jetset » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:11 am

lirr42 wrote:
jetset wrote:
redline43 wrote:Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'm but a bit confused. Does the 8:11a inbound from Jamaica that used to travel via the Lower Mountak travel over the Main Line now? And if so, what is the point of skipping HPA?


It travels over the mainline and still skips HPA which does not make any sense! Someone posted the ridership west of Jamaica was about 20 pax. That number could easily be 200 if it stopped at HPA.

My morning train leaves Jamaica at 8:19, eight minutes after 507 (the train that skips HPA) leaves Jamaica, so there's no real benifit to meddling with that train's schedule when the next train to HPA is only eight minutes away. There also might be some sort of conflict on the platforms (i.e. 507 might not have enough time to get out of the way so 2703 can platform a few minutes later).

That's just what I make of it.


I'm on the same train in the morning as you and that 8:19am typically leaves Jamaica at about 8:24am after holding for the Penn train to crossover. It might not seem like a lot but when every minute counts I would take the 8:11am train if it stopped at Hunterspoint. The 8:11 would be the best connection I could make from my home station to HPA however I have to wait for the 8:19(8:24 in my mind) or drive to a different home station.

Of course my other concern is why would the LIRR pay for a train to carry 20 pax west of Jamaica during rush hour? Cancel the train in Jamaica and have the LIC pax wait for the 8:19am train instead.
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby keyboardkat » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:36 pm

This may have been discussed before, but why is it called the Lower Montauk when it is north (northwest, of course) of the rest of the Montauk Branch? It should be called the Upper Montauk and then east of Jamaica it should be the Lower Montauk!
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby DaveBarraza » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:34 pm

Of course my other concern is why would the LIRR pay for a train to carry 20 pax west of Jamaica during rush hour?

Because they need the equipment at LIC in the afternoon. If they ended that run in Jamaica, then they would have to pay a crew to get the equipment to LIC sometime in the day. Same money for the crew and diesel, but now you have 20 geese to offset some of the cost.
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby RestrictOnTheHanger » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:23 pm

lirr42 wrote:
jetset wrote:
redline43 wrote:Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'm but a bit confused. Does the 8:11a inbound from Jamaica that used to travel via the Lower Mountak travel over the Main Line now? And if so, what is the point of skipping HPA?


It travels over the mainline and still skips HPA which does not make any sense! Someone posted the ridership west of Jamaica was about 20 pax. That number could easily be 200 if it stopped at HPA.

My morning train leaves Jamaica at 8:19, eight minutes after 507 (the train that skips HPA) leaves Jamaica, so there's no real benifit to meddling with that train's schedule when the next train to HPA is only eight minutes away. There also might be some sort of conflict on the platforms (i.e. 507 might not have enough time to get out of the way so 2703 can platform a few minutes later).

That's just what I make of it.


There's also 611, the Port Jeff flyer which runs nonstop from Syosset to HPA and arrives at 8:30. As an aside, the eastbound deadheads from LIC sometimes cause congestion around the station now that they run via the main line. 611 sometimes has to wait for 507 to overtake us even though we already overtook them at Jamaica, since at the same time an eastbound deadhead is leaving LIC via HPA.

I guess another question would be that since 507 and 611 are both 4 cars and an engine, couldn't they both discharge on the same track at the same time if 507 stopped at HPA? It would allow for an HPA stop on 507

Example
Code: Select all
    507               611         
C-T-T-T-DE   C-T-T-T-DE
---------------------
|     Platform      |
---------------------
E/B deadhead -------->

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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby lirr42 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:30 pm

RestrictOnTheHanger wrote:I guess another question would be that since 507 and 611 are both 4 cars and an engine, couldn't they both discharge on the same track at the same time if 507 stopped at HPA? It would allow for an HPA stop on 507

Example

Code: Select all
    507          611
C-T-T-T-DE   C-T-T-T-DE
----------------------
|      Platform      |
----------------------
E/B deadhead -------->

Not really. If you put the two coupler to coupler it might fit, but if you put any decent amount of space between the two (which would be necessary) you would come pretty close to fouling that crossover just to the east of the station.
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby RestrictOnTheHanger » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:35 pm

Whoops, forgot about that. The e/b signals are right up against the platform too.
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby LIengineerBob » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:09 am

When things get in a jam down at HPA due to delays or a late train, you will hear PSCC call a train and ask them to pull all the way west so they can put another train behind them to unload. It happens frequently, and there is no rules against it.

As far as the equipment trains go, if they are delayed or late leaving LIC due to late passenger west bounds and lack of space at HPA and/or into/out of Harold, it's no big deal, they will just sit in LIC until they can be handled. They DO NOT contribute to the OTP so it does not matter when they leave.

At one time in Huntington, this was done everyday where the Port Jeff connection pulled right up to the rear of the MU connection and the people would walk forward for the MU to Penn Station.

Of course, with the downgrading (notice I did not say loss, because the LIRR didn't lose it) of the Lower Montauk to a secondary track, the LIRR did lose a lot of operation flexibility in/out of LIC/HPA with the diesel trains.
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby DaveBarraza » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:01 am

They DO NOT contribute to the OTP so it does not matter when they leave.

Unless the equipment move becomes another westbound revenue train. If there's a quick turn at the east end then lateness leaving HPA would cause a problem. Also, there's that point in the AM rush where both mainline tracks are set westbound, so an equipment move leaving HPA would have to make that window before it closed.

Does 502 still run light from LIC to Jamaica and then become a revenue train there? That's another on where the EB Q-move has a time sensitivity. Used to run on the Montauk, so no issue. (My ETT is woefully out of date!!)
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby jetset » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:40 pm

DaveBarraza wrote:Of course my other concern is why would the LIRR pay for a train to carry 20 pax west of Jamaica during rush hour?

Because they need the equipment at LIC in the afternoon. If they ended that run in Jamaica, then they would have to pay a crew to get the equipment to LIC sometime in the day. Same money for the crew and diesel, but now you have 20 geese to offset some of the cost.


This can easily be resolved by any one of the trains that end their run in HPA or LIC and deadhead back to Jamaica. For example, with 507 ending in Jamaica 2703 can now stay in LIC and not deadhead back as it currently does today... just seems like a waste of resources.
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby lirr42 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:32 pm

There might be no room at the inn by Jamaica, at that time. And there might be further equipment turns that depend off those equipment runs back. There is also crew turns to consider as well. 507's crew might deadhead back on whatever 2703 becomes. After all, there is no reverse peak service there, unfortunately. It's a lot more complicated than "two trains go there and one comes back, so why not send only one there and not have to worry about bringing one back."

Keep in mind, people still use that train. They mind as well make at least some money off of it.
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby Jersey_Mike » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:50 am

ExCon90 wrote:Secondary tracks were common on the PRR (presumably that's how they found their way to the LIRR); I think the designation stemmed from a definition in ICC regulations, which was possibly brought along into FRA regs. More flexibility and fewer restrictions, probably acceptable in territory that only sees one movement at a time anyway.


While the term was and is common on former Conrail territory it did not actually mean anything in terms of train operation. Secondary tracks could be operated under DCS, 251 or 261 signal rules. Of course the LIRR uses the older rulebook so that's why I asked.
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Re: No more Lower Montauk!!

Postby DaveBarraza » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:55 pm

LIRR matches the distinction in the PRR and NORAC books. From what I can reckon, Main Track must be operated with manual block, train order, or signals; but secondary MAY be operated that one of those means, or with verbal only.
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"Lower Montauk" line

Postby JKTRR » Tue May 21, 2013 5:33 am

Trying to get an answer for an out-of-town colleague....He's been trying to gather some missing mileage inc. the LIC - Jamaica "Lower Montauk" Line.....(506/564 used to operate that way, but no longer and his most recent trip/attempt on train 506 went via Woodside and HPA.) Train crew told him "we don't go that way any longer; been turned over to the freight operator". Any info? Confirmed? When?
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Re: "Lower Montauk" line

Postby jayrmli » Tue May 21, 2013 6:49 am

This has already been extensively been discussed:

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=141565
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