EMD SD50 series official thread (covers all variations)

Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.

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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby Mr. Know It All » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:17 am

Thanks for the info on the TMM114. BIG HELP!!!! Apparently everything must be doen inside the LC if they did not change the other references/feedbacks.....just do the calculations as normal and then take off a percentage. Seems logical and fairly easy without any rework on the other stuff. If you find out any more (like load test values and such, please let me know)
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby WVU » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:18 pm

Mr. Know it all, I failed to mention, that when they lowered the HP the 1st time on the SD50 back in the early 90's when they had the LC modules. The 8500 thru 8603 not counting 8525 & 8526 was rated for 3500 HP with a LC114. 8604 thru 8643 had the LC118 which was rated for 3600 HP. The units with the LC118 modules was changed to LC114 modules. All of the SD50's had governor changes, they removed the 954 rpm governor with a .82 rack and installed a 926 rpm governor with a .82 rack. They also changed the injector timing from firing at "0" degrees top dead center to firing at "2" degrees after top dead center. Years later, CSX derates them again this time with the TMM114 card and they change the governor to 904 rpm with a .88 rack. They also change the firing of the injectors again from firing at "2" degrees after top dead center to firing at "4"degrees after top dead center for 3000 HP. CSX is now computerizing the SD50 units and are changing the 16-645F3B engine to a 16-645E3C.
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby Allen Hazen » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:12 pm

WVU--
From 645F3B to 645***E***3C? I thought the letter in an EMD engine designation stood for a crankcase design: does this mean that CSX SD50 are getting new engine main frames? Or, can you tell me what "E" means?
---
Lowering rpm when you try to reduce hp makes sense, even to an amateur like me. Can you explain why the injector firing is being delayed? It means 5the fuel isn't going into the cylinder until after the air in it has peaked in pressure and temperature. Is this an air pollution control matter, trying to reduce Nitrogen oxide production?
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby WVU » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:02 pm

Allen to start with, I am an electrician with CSX, but I know just enough about the mechanical side to get me in trouble. I believe that firing the cylinder after top dead center is for more pollution control plus it will lower your HP. Allen have you ever noticed how clean the SD70 electronic fuel injected units run when watching the stacks as they go by? If memory serves me correct, the #1 injector fires on those units 41 degrees after top dead center. Now lets talk about Mechanical Fuel Injected Units. Lets take just the GP40-2 and the SD40-2. They have all kinds of engine configurations with different governors and turbos and injectors that are good for 3000 HP and if these engine have been emissionized they will all fire at 4 degrees past top dead center.
16-645E has a .83 Rack Governor with 9250 injectors and a 5597 turbo
16-645E3B has a .80 Rack governor with 9335 injectors and a 9283 turbo
16-645E3C has a .84 Rack governor with 9335 injectors and a 3498 turbo
16-645E3M has a .87 Rack governor with 9250 injectors and a 5597 turbo
Allen notice the number that is before the Rack. The lower the number, the more fuel it will give the engine in notch 8 to make 3000 HP. Lets take the .80 Rack for example. If the unit is making say 2750 HP and your Rack is running .84, you are running a Long Rack and the governor is not giving you the fuel you need. Now lets say that on the .80 Rack Governor you are making 3300 HP and you are running a short Rack at .76, your governor is giving you too much fuel.
Allen I mentioned that the SD50 is being reworked in a previous post. Yes they are applying a 16-645E3C engine which is normally a .84 Rack, but I am not aware of what type of Rack this unit will run yet. They are applying a new style Electronic Governor Control Unit which is Mechanical Fuel Injected that is a lot like what is on the SD40-3 computerized units.
Allen the old SD50 had a 16-645F3B engine with a .82 Rack and 3489 injectors and a 3498 turbo.
When the SD60 1st came out it had a .78 rack governor on it with a 16-710G engine
Later they put a .82 rack governor on the SD60 with a 16-710G3B engine with 4488 injectors and a 1530 turbo.
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby WVU » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:42 pm

Allen you asked what does the letter "E" mean
16 stands for number of cylinders
645 stands for Cubic Inch Displacement per cylinder
"E" stands for Application: Example are some of the 1st EMD engines was the 567A thru E. Then came the 645E thru F and then there is the 710G.
Now if you see for example 16-645-E3B, the B in E3B stands for Generation Fuel Economy "B". it could be a C or even an M
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby Allen Hazen » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:11 pm

Thank you, WVU!
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby WVU » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:15 pm

Your very welcome Allen. I love talking locomotives. Allen I have worked on them almost 31 years and I have spent the biggest part of my time working on the Loadbox testing locomotives.
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby bogieman » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:43 pm

Allen,
You are correct in your thinking re the letter designating the crankcase design; the letter is incremented when significant changes are made to the crankcase design. Doesn't matter whether it is 2 or 4 stroke, hence the 4 stroke "H" engine followed the 710G. It has nothing to do with the application.

Dave
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby atsf sp » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:32 pm

Are the SD50-3 for CSX rebuild basically the same as a NS SD40E rebuilds? I know both come from SD50 bdies being rebuilt.
"Why would you take a train to go see another train?"
Some people just don't understand.
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby RickRackstop » Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:54 pm

There has been a firestorm of criticism of the SD50 and GP50 locomotives over the years and yet both NS and CSX have major rebuild programs both with replacements of the original wheel-slip control. They will probably get another 25 years out of them. I sense they feel as if they will have the ideal locomotive at last. No wonder EMD can't sell new locomotives. It was at this time that GE surged into the production lead with units that are almost all retired. In a way from the point of view GE makes the perfect locomotive in that it turns into scrap just as it depreciated out and its simpler to buy a new one.
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby WVU » Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:32 pm

Dave you say letter has nothing to do with Application. I have an EMD Engine Service Manual copyright, April 1997 on page 2-14 that says it does have to do with Application and this is how it states it. Example below
(16) (645) (E3)(B)
16 stands for number of cylinders
645 stands for cubic inches
E3 stands for Application
B stands for New Generation Fuel Economy

Serial NO. 80 A1 1102
Example (80) (A)(1) (11)(02)
80 stands for year produced
A stands for Month Produced
1 stands for Engine history
you can have a 1 through 4 with 1 being a New Manufacture, 2 being Remananufactured trade in, 3 being UTEX (unit exchange), 4 being Repair and Return
11 stands for location of production
02 stands for Production Sequence

Dave you might be right, but I have my information from EMD, so if I am wrong, EMD needs to re write there manuals
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby bogieman » Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:49 pm

It's not the E3 that stands for the application, it's the 3. The E is crankcase designation, the 3 means locomotive turbocharged engine. E with no number after it is a roots blown locomotive engine, 1 and 2 are roots blown industrial and marine, I don't recall of the top of my head which one is which. 4, 5, 6, and 7 were turbocharged marine, industrial, drill rig, etc. but again I don't recall which is which. So a 710G3 is a turbocharged locomotive engine with a G crankcase.

Dave
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby WVU » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:22 pm

Dave, I understand what you are saying, I have worked on these things for almost 31 years. But I am only repeating how the EMD service manual words it. I am not disagreeing with you, I am just wording it the way the book states it.
WVU
 
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby bogieman » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:56 pm

Well I worked in EMD Engineering for 35 years so I got you beat!

Seriously, it must be a 645E series engine manual you are looking at which doesn't go into detail on the other crankcase designations.

Dave
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Re: SD-50 Series locomotives. Get it all, HERE!!!

Postby WVU » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:53 pm

No, Dave it is a manual that coveres 645 and 710 engines and talks a little about the 567 engine. Dave, I might be wrong, but I think we are just having a problem with terminology and the way we are looking at things. Like I said in my last responce, I am not disagreeing with you, but on page 2-14 it talks about Application and this is how it is worded. (When I was writting to Allen I just picked the 16-645E3B engine as an example). Dave, I know that you know what you are talking about. I think we are just looking at it differently. Hey you might have me beat, but I bet I can troubleshoot a mechanical problem or an electrical problem on a locomotive as well as you can. You might engineer them, but I fix them.
E-Railroad engine blower equipped
E1-Industrial engine blower equipped
E2-Marine engine blower equipped (without strainer housing)
E3- Railroad engine Turbocharged
E4-Industrial power generator
E5=Marine engine turbocharged (without strainer housing)
E6-Marine engine blower equipped (with strainer housing)
E7-Marine engine turbocharged (with strainer housing)
E8-Drill rig engine blower equipped
E9-Drill engine turbocharged
E10-Industrial engine turbocharged
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