EMD Export Locomotives

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EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Pneudyne » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:39 am

This thread is started partly to provide documentary evidence for EMD export locomotive models that were catalogued but not built, in support of the thread Diesels Catalogued, but not Built in the forum General Discussion: Locomotives, Rolling Stock, and Equipment. But it may also serve as an accumulator for information on EMD export models, in a similar way to the parallel thread GE Export Diesels in the GE forum.

The primary web source on EMD exports is that of Larry Russell; http://emdexport.railfan.net/home.html.

The first export model to be considered is the G16, which was built only in C-C form, with the B-B and A1A-A1A variants apparently falling into the catalogued-but-not-built class.

That all three wheel arrangements were offered is recorded in the Kalmbach book “Our GM Scrapbook”, of 1971. On page 72 it was stated: “What evolved was the 1950/1800 h.p. G16, with optional wheel arrangements (B-B, A1A-A1A, C-C) to adapt it to any gauge.” The G16 was said to have evolved from the military MRS-1 design. But I suspect that it may also have incorporated some elements of the never-built R, universal gauge version.

The G16 was released in 1958, the year in which EMD considerably expanded its standard export model range (from EMD and GMD production), which immediately previously had consisted of the G8 and G12 models. That said, its overseas licensees were building various customized models based upon standard components, particularly for the standard and broad gauge markets. So with these included, its overall export model range was quite broad.

Perhaps to mark its 1968 efforts, EMD placed a six-page advertisement in the trade journal “Diesel Railway Traction” for 1958 November, covering all of the standard export models. The first three pages thereof are attached here.

Cheers,

DRT 195811 p.19.jpg

DRT 195811 p.20.jpg

DRT 195811 p.21.jpg
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Pneudyne » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:42 am

And here are the second group of three pages.


DRT 195811 p.22.jpg

DRT 195811 p.23.jpg

DRT 195811 p.24.jpg
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Pneudyne » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:54 am

In respect of the G16, the information one may glean from the fourth page is that it was available with four or six motors, and as illustrated, had six axles.

The tabulation on the thirds page shows that it had four or six axles. So those two items mean that there must have been at least B-B and C-C variants available. Since only a single minimum axle loading number was presented for the six axle case, as was done for the C-C GR12, but in contradistinction to the A1A-A1A variants of the G8 and G12, for which a range was shown, then on the basis of this advertisement alone one might conclude that the case for an A1A-A1A variant was not all that strong. But the Kalmbach book says otherwise, and that I think is a strong reference point.

Also, the A1A-A1A option (but strangely not the B-B option) was mentioned in the DRT 1958 December item, attached.

EMD and its licensees produced quite a few A1A-A1A export locomotives in the 1950s and into the 1960s, quite in contrast to Alco and GE. In fact GE somewhat eschewed the A1A-A1A wheel arrangement at the time, that being something for elaboration in the GE Export Diesels thread.

Cheers,

DRT 195812 p.449 New EMD Range.jpg
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Pneudyne » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:35 am

Apart from the G16 variants already mentioned, as far as I know, every other model and variant mentioned in that 1958 November EMD advertisement was built and supplied to customers.

Thus:

GM6
GA8
GL8
G8; B-B and A1A-A1A
G12; B-B and A1A-A1A
GR12
G16; C-C
GMDH-1
GMDH-3

At that time, the GL8 was B-B only, and looks as if it had been designed that way. But early production included a couple of A1A-A1A variants, one with a longer frame and the same truck centres as the B-B variant for Brasil, and another with the same frame as the B-B and shorter truck centres for East Pakistan and Taiwan at least.

EMD/GMD never built a six-motor, 8-cylinder 567-engined model, but Clyde-GM did. First was the G8C for New South Wales. This was more-or-less a longer, six-motor version of the G8B that Clyde had built for Victoria, this being something of a G8/GL8 hybrid. Second was the GL8C for Queensland, which somewhat at least was what one might expect a six-motor GL8 to have been.

The Clyde-GM models seem to drift further away from the similarly designated EMD prototypes over time. The Clyde-GM G8 and G12 started out just a little different from their EMD parents, and the differences escalated from there.

Cheers,
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby NorthWest » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:44 pm

Thank you for this excellent information! It is greatly appreciated.
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:55 pm

As a very hidebound GE fan, my response to information about "off brands" is … sniff.
As a person interested in railway history, my response is… HURRAH!!!! Thank you for this: even as a GE fan, I want to know what "the enemy" was up to! (Grin!)
This looks like a string which will be very valuable indeed.
---
How were the radiators cooled on early EMD exports (G series)? Domestic EMD locomotives (other than switchers) of the time had prominent roof-mounted radiator fans, and these models don't seem to. Was the fan BELOW the radiator cores (as it is on locomotives from better builders (Grin)? And was it a motor-driven fan or mechanically driven by an extension of the crankshaft?

The proposed GR-16, as depicted in drawings you posted earlier, had a row of four roof fans at the end of the long hood: so its radiator configuration was like that on the domestic SE-7 and SD-9 models. So the treatment of this part of the locomotive was one of the things that changed when the GR-16 proposal was replaced by the G-16.
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby bogieman » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:32 pm

It's interesting to note that at the time of this ad, EMD locomotives were not sold to overseas customers by EMD, they were sold by GMOO, General Motors Overseas Operations based in New York City. EMD acted as a supplier to GMOO or GMOO acted as an agent, depending how you look at it. It wasn't until the early 1970's, as I recall, that the sales force for export units was brought in-house at EMD.
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Pneudyne » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:53 pm

Yes, I had noticed that. I have a selection of EMD trade journal advertisements from 1957 through 1963, and all are in the name of General Motors Overseas Operations.

Cheers,
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Pneudyne » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:04 pm

[quote="Allen Hazen"]How were the radiators cooled on early EMD exports (G series)? Domestic EMD locomotives (other than switchers) of the time had prominent roof-mounted radiator fans, and these models don't seem to. Was the fan BELOW the radiator cores (as it is on locomotives from better builders (Grin)? And was it a motor-driven fan or mechanically driven by an extension of the crankshaft?

The G8 and G12 had a mechanically driven horizontal (vertical shaft) fan, under the horizontal radiator, driven by a right-angle speed-increaser, which was reputedly a trouble-spot.

Some of the later G-series iterations had shaft-driven vertical fans, with either vertical or horizontal radiators.

I have attached drawings for the G8 and G12 cases.

Cheers,

GM DE Locos p.19.jpg

GM DE Locos p.23.jpg
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Pneudyne » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:34 pm

Some examples of the later layouts.

Cheers,


Clyde-GM G6B VR Y (2nd).jpg

Clyde-GM G8C NSWGR 49 Class.jpg

Clyde-GM GL8C QR 1700.jpg
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:42 am

Pneudyne-- Why do I get the impression you can answer questions faster than I can ask them? (Grin)
---
EMD switchers, from the 201A engined SC/SW/NC/NW models of the late 1930s to the MP15 (later designated MP15DC) of the mid 1970s, had radiators cooled by a vertical, mechanically driven, fan: the Victorian Railways Y class, however, with its vertically mounted radiator isn't QUITE the domestic configuration. North American EMD switchers had the radiator mounted horizontally, at the top of the hood. (So the fan would have drawn air in at the front, and the air then turned 90 degrees to go through the radiator and out hood-top vents. In later switchers, these vents are very visible, since they are covered by screening, but in the earliest models they seem to have had movable flaps which, when closed, would make the hood roof look solid.)

The Queensland Railways 1700 has an interesting variation on this. The radiator is horizontal and mounted just below the roof, but the fan, instead of being at the hood end to draw air through an end intake, is inboard (i.e. cabwards) of the radiator, drawing air through side intakes even further inboard. (End intakes are workable on switchers, which stand still a lot of the time. They can be problematic on a road service locomotive where, if the locomotive is operating radiator end rear, airflow to them can be restricted.) There are two curved arcs in the drawing which I assume represent baffles to direct the air roofward.

The G-8 and G-12 have the configuration (mechanically driven horizontally mounted fan below the radiate cores) that Alco and GE used. Just from the appearance of the rear end of the long hood in the picture you posted earlier, I would assume that the G-16 also had this sort of radiator installation.

Thank you again for posting all these!
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Pneudyne » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:30 pm

Allen Hazen wrote:As a person interested in railway history, my response is… HURRAH!!!! Thank you for this: even as a GE fan, I want to know what "the enemy" was up to! (Grin!).


Agreed, one cannot properly study the development and progression of the GE export models without also looking at what Alco and EMD (and others) were doing.

In the first half of the 1950s, EMD’s main approach to the SB-gauge export market was to have its licensees develop and build derivatives of the F3, F9, etc. For the CM-gauge market the B was something of an interim model, but work on what became the G started quite early, and this was conceived as an EMD/GMD-built standard road-switcher particularly suitable for the CM-gauge market, although available for other gauges.

EMD’s significant 1958 standard export model range expansion may be seen as having been at least in part a response to GE’s 1956 Universal range, primarily but not exclusively CMT-gauge oriented, with close to “soup-to-nuts” coverage, and with a three foot-gauge option using its GE764 motor. I think it was somewhat after 1958 that EMD first offered its D36/CD36 three foot-gauge motor, but of the 1958 range, the shaft-driven GM6, GA8, GMDH-1 and GMDH-3 were available in this gauge. Alco had also expanded its export range beyond the DL500 and into road-switcher models late in 1956.

Evidently Henry Ford-like standardization was part of the early EMD G-series philosophy, and it was said to have been most reluctant to offer an A1A-A1A variant of the G8 and G12, preferring B-B only. But that was unavoidable given the axle-load restrictions that obtained for many, if not most of its potential CM-gauge customers. So the 1958 expansion of the G-range was something of a change in direction, and by the first half of the 1960s, EMD was prepared to embrace customer specials, such as the GA12 and GA12C for India.

Cheers,
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby pjw1967 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:29 pm

This is anecdotal so I will understand if gets deleted in such a technical discussion. I visited Ireland with my family in 1963. Due to a storm in Galway preventing the tender reaching our ship, CIE put together a special train to take us to Cobh. How they threw together a train for 150 passengers so quickly is a true wonder. When we got to station platform, the driver was standing next to a relatively new Class 121 EMD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_lo ... of_Ireland As noted in this article, the engine was oriented "cab forward". I asked the driver how come it was pointed opposite to the American style. He replied that this way they only needed one man in the cab, i.e. no fireman. I'll find another forum to discuss the behavior of my mother and my aunt as they drank Baby Chams at every station stop on the trip.
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:22 pm

(pjw1967-- CIE continued to be able to put on special trains on short notice. When I first went to Ireland in September 1977, Dublin Airport was fogged in and Are Lingus had to let us off at Shannon. And arranged a special train with CIE to take a 747-load of passengers from Limerick to Dublin.)

Pneudyne-- I didn't realize that EMD had made a 3-foot gauge traction motor! I had assumed they relied on things like the GA-8 for sub-meter gauge applications. (National of Mexico had a few GA-8 and I think even its successor model the GA-18 to serve some of their surviving 3-foot gauge lines.)
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Re: EMD Export Locomotives

Postby Pneudyne » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:48 pm

Re CIE, my understanding is that it adopted single-person crewing for its main-line diesel locomotives quite early on. Its mid/late 1950s A, B and C classes, all of the double end-cab type, were designed for that, and had driving positions on both sides of the cab. Somewhere – and I might be able to find the reference – I read that in the days of mixed traction, where a given crew might operate both diesel and steam locomotives during a shift, the fireman typically travelled as a passenger on the diesel legs. Re Babycham, I recall that it was popular with the YLs when I was living in London in the 1970s. I wouldn’t though have associated it with mothers and aunts.....

Returning to EMD exports, I have attached a drawing for the Clyde-GM version of the G12. This clearly shows the extra length and the back porch. The drawing is from the 1957 January edition of the generic operating manual, and I suspect, basis the buffers and couplers, was based upon the initial QR delivery, with fabricated trucks.

The D36 3-foot gauge traction motor was used for example on the Colombia GR12 fleet. Clyde-GM also used its version, the CD36, on the (Cape gauge) QR GL8C and GL18C models, ostensibly to assist in keeping weights down.

Cheers,

Clyde-GM G12 195701.jpg
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