EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

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EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby MEC407 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:39 am

From The Wall Street Journal:

The Wall Street Journal wrote:Caterpillar's Electro-Motive Diesel unit said its freight locomotives probably won't be available until 2017. Caterpillar said it is working to speed up its schedule and could have demonstration models available as early as next year but doesn't anticipate having production units ready until 2017.

GE is already testing locomotives that comply with diesel-engine exhaust regulations that take effect Jan. 1. The company has added a pollution-reduction system to its existing locomotive engine and expects full-scale production of emissions-compliant locomotives to start next summer. "We've got units operating so we can demonstrate performance," said Tina Donikowski, vice president for GE's locomotive business.
. . .
GE has an estimated 60% to 70% of the U.S. locomotive market. Electro-Motive's two-year absence is expected to help GE solidify that lead, especially if GE's locomotive is a hit with the railroads, analysts said. Caterpillar is "definitely going to lose market share for the years that GE will have something ready to sell," said Lawrence De Maria, an analyst for William Blair & Co.
. . .
Caterpillar said its own diesel engines are being used in passenger locomotives and smaller freight locomotives used for short hauls. North American railroads, though, so far have shown little interest in powering Electro-Motive's long-distance freight locomotives with Caterpillar's diesel engines, according to rail industry analysts. Instead, the railroads continue to prefer Electro-Motive's mainstay 1984 engine model, which has been updated repeatedly over the years.
. . .
Despite its popularity, the engine can't be easily retrofitted to meet new federal requirements for reducing diesel soot particles and smog-causing emissions, forcing Caterpillar to come up with an alternative engine.


Read the rest of the article at: http://online.wsj.com/articles/caterpil ... 1405291739
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby Allen Hazen » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:40 pm

Thank you for posting that!
If I may be permitted to ask a GE question on the EMD forum… The article says that the new pollution standards take effect on the first of january, and quotes a GE person as saying that their new locomotive will go into production next summer: does that mean that GE is going to spend the first few months of 2015 … concentrating on the export market?
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby MEC407 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:24 am

That was my interpretation of the quote as well.
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby D.Carleton » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:18 pm

From the trenches: This is ridiculous. I've spent the first half of the year moving cars and locomotives for my employer all over the continent. Every yard for every railroad I've had to interface with tells the same tale: More traffic than they know what to do with. The railroads are buying motive power as fast as they can find money for them. The manufacturers are building them as fast as the railroads can pay for them. And now one of the two builders may be taking a two year hiatus? This is the worst turn of events at exactly the worst time in railroading since possibly the Great Depression.

NS is buying every too-far-gone road locomotive they can get their hands on and that's beginning to look like smart money.
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby MEC407 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:07 pm

Also smart money: rebuilding and upgrading their large fleet of Dash 8s and Dash 9s. BNSF appears ready to begin a similar project.
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby NorthWest » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:09 am

The Caterpillar C175 seems to be the engine of the future for EMD. The F125 will use it, and Vossloh in Europe has begun to transition from their 710 powered EuroSprinter series to their Eurolight series that uses the C175. I have read elsewhere that the C175 does require urea after treatment to reach Tier IV, but I cannot confirm.
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby JayBee » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:41 pm

Tier IV and Euro 3b are not exactly the same. The euro standard uses different duty cycles than the US EPA uses for Tier IV. Also the assumed lifetime of the diesel engine is shorter (Overhaul cycle). US Railroad's want a 750k mile overhaul cycle which equates to about 7 years for the first overhaul. Subsequent cycles will be longer in time as the locomotive gets downgraded from premium high-mileage assignments. This is why Medium speed diesels haven't made a dent in the major Class I market, along with the costs for parts to perform the overhaul.
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby NorthWest » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:06 pm

In agreement. The EPA Emissions Useful Life is also 10 years or 33,750MW-hours, whichever comes first.
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby MEC407 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:12 am

NorthWest wrote:I have read elsewhere that the C175 does require urea after treatment to reach Tier IV, but I cannot confirm.


I recall reading that in one of the articles about the F125 locomotive.

I assume that EMD is still trying to figure out a non-urea solution for the 710... can anyone confirm that?
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby NorthWest » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:54 pm

MEC407 wrote:
I assume that EMD is still trying to figure out a non-urea solution for the 710... can anyone confirm that?

I'm not sure (not part of the industry)... Even with EGR, DOC and DPF, it seems that UP 9900 failed to meet Tier IV standards. An article on it is at the bottom of this post. The fact that it is a two stroke design naturally leads to more particulates, (combusted oil), than a four cycle, making it more difficult to achieve the emissions standards.There probably is at least some sense of urgency at EMD. GE has failed to produce a locomotive that maintains Tier IV for 750K miles, though.

If urea must be used, I suspect that the railroads will favor the 710 over the C175, for parts commonality and the perceived shorter life of the C175 due to the much higher RPMs.




http://www.arb.ca.gov/railyard/docs/final_report_emd_tier_4_pm_aftertreatment_upgrade_83112_final_v1.pdf
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby Allen Hazen » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:00 pm

Possible answer to the question (nine posts up) of what GE is planning to do for the first half of 2015. GEVO, posting to the Tier IV string on the GE forum recently, said:
"Due to emission credits the class 1 railroads have accumulated, EMD and GE will be able to continue to build tier 3 diesel engines until about mid year 2015."
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby v8interceptor » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:36 am

I've read a several articles about Tier IV and the railroad industry that say that the Class 1 freight railroads will NOT purchase SCR/Urea equipped locomotives if there is any alternative available due to the additional servicing and maintenance requirements. That means that GE will have the North American market for new build mainline freight locomotives all to itself for at least a couple of years if it's Tier IV units are successful. EMD is aware of this which is why they apparently are not planning to market an SCR equipped freight unit.
There are commuter operators that are ordering SCR equipped prime movers in new locomotives.
A few years ago there were a number of sources stating that EMD was well ahead of GE in developing EGR technology for locomotive use; what a huge stumble this is for CAT/EMD.
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby Engineer Spike » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:36 pm

It seems like the EPA standards are reaching the limits of technology. Maybe the GM 2 stroke design has met its match. Perhaps EMD should have continued development of the H. They could have made a 12 cylinder 4000 HP version. Wasn't GE Evolution engine design based on those in the AC6000?

In the mean time, let's see what a SD40 price will inflate to. Railroads can lobby that they are in dire need of locomotives. Railroads are already the most efficient form of transport. Just delay Tier IV, just like how they are trying to delay PTC.
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby MEC407 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:04 am

Engineer Spike wrote:Perhaps EMD should have continued development of the H.


In some ways, they did. They used the 16-265 in the JT56ACe built for China. It meets Tier 2. The big question, however, is could it meet Tier 4, and did they ever do any development work to make that happen? I don't know the answer to that.

Engineer Spike wrote:Wasn't GE Evolution engine design based on those in the AC6000?


Yes, the GEVO-12 and GEVO-16 are based on the basic design of HDL, but with a long list of modifications, upgrades, and improvements.
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Re: EMD Tier 4 locomotives delayed until 2017

Postby v8interceptor » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:23 am

MEC407 wrote:
Engineer Spike wrote:Perhaps EMD should have continued development of the H.


In some ways, they did. They used the 16-265 in the JT56ACe built for China. It meets Tier 2. The big question, however, is could it meet Tier 4, and did they ever do any development work to make that happen? I don't know the answer to that.

Engineer Spike wrote:Wasn't GE Evolution engine design based on those in the AC6000?


Yes, the GEVO-12 and GEVO-16 are based on the basic design of HDL, but with a long list of modifications, upgrades, and improvements.


EMD had a single cylinder 265 test unit that was part of the R&D program seeking to develop a practical Exhaust Gas Re-circulation based emissions control system for the 710 engine family. My understanding is that the EGR system itself could not be made to work correctly, even with the 4 cycle 265 test piece.
I would be interested to hear more about this but everything I've read indicates that the problem lies with the EGR technology..
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