Milwauke GP20 Info

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Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby Paul » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:53 am

Does anybody have solid info as to the HP ratings of the Milwaukee GP9 rebuild with 16/645E engines and reclassed as GP20? Also, where can I expect to find frame numbers on GP9s?
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby Allen Hazen » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:07 am

I ***think*** I remember reading, when the conversions were relatively new, that these nuts were rated at 2000 hp, giving an excuse for calling them "GP20". It seems plausible enough: with 645 power assemblies, the engines were very similar to those on a GP-38. (Identical in terms of cylinders and pistons. The basic engine structure-- frame, crank-case-- was still that of the original 567C, so perhaps not as robust. But I think the power increase of only 250 hp was small enough that this wasn't an issue.)
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby RickRackstop » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:00 pm

In the example of upgrading a 567 engine to 645 power besides 645 power paks and injectors they have to change the governor to speed it up from 800 rpm to 900 rpm. However in one case some fool put a turbo on on a 567 crankcase conversion and EMD said run don't walk away from that one. Probably referred it to their legal department just in case. The turbocharged 567 D crankcase only came in one size, 16 cylinder, and it was heavier than the 16 cylinder "C" crankcase.
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby v8interceptor » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:59 am

RickRackstop wrote:In the example of upgrading a 567 engine to 645 power besides 645 power paks and injectors they have to change the governor to speed it up from 800 rpm to 900 rpm. However in one case some fool put a turbo on on a 567 crankcase conversion and EMD said run don't walk away from that one. Probably referred it to their legal department just in case. The turbocharged 567 D crankcase only came in one size, 16 cylinder, and it was heavier than the 16 cylinder "C" crankcase.


But then in the 90's EMD was trying to market the BL20-2 with a rebuild,turbocharged 2,000hp 567 variant (minus the 645 power assemblies)..that always puzzled me. The three demonstrators built garnered no Class 1 orders but seem to have performed reliably in lease fleet service.
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby RickRackstop » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:06 pm

No the BL20's had new Klatterpiller engines and were assembled by Motive Power using rebuilt EMD trucks on salvaged GP chassis.
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby MEC407 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:15 pm

RickRackstop wrote:No the BL20's had new Klatterpiller engines and were assembled by Motive Power using rebuilt EMD trucks on salvaged GP chassis.


I think you're thinking of something else. From "Field Guide to Modern Diesel Locomotives" by Greg McDonnell, page 104: the three BL20-2s were built by EMD LaGrange in 1992. They have turbocharged 16-567s under the hood. Built on GP7/GP9 frames. Carbody similar to GP39-2, with GP60M-style dynamic brake housing. The book includes a photo of the EMD builder's plate.

Here is a photo of the first one when it was brand new: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=613940
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby RickRackstop » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:15 pm

That's interesting. If its a 567 turbo its probably got a "D" crankcase or even an "E" crankcase as EMD probably had a warehouse full of unit exchange units. In the early production of "D" crankcases some of them had seal plate leaks that if they couldn't be repaired by welding were replaced with "E" crankcases as that what was in production at the time. A lot of unit exchange 567 D4 engines came back with "E" crankcases but they ran at 900 rpm and at 2000KW (about 2700 hp)
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Re: EMD BL20-2

Postby JayBee » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:25 pm

The three BL20-2s were built on three ex-NP GP9 chassis supplied by BN, who was the initial prospective customer. This was at the time that BN was doing a complete makeover of their medium horsepower fleet (GP39E,M,V and GP28M, and P). The price must not have been right as BN didn't bite, even though they still had GP9 cores.

The locomotives with Caterpillar engines were the MPI produced GP15B and GP20B locomotives, with EMD supplying the EM2000 engine control computer system and doing the marketing(apparently not very well only 40 sold to a single customer CIT Leasing).
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby MEC407 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:40 pm

They were called GP15D and GP20D. No idea what the "D" was supposed to stand for, but that's what they're called in all the books I've read, and that's what I recall seeing on the old EMD web site when they were still being promoted.

I imagine they would have sold a lot more of them if they had actual EMD engines under the hoods! They could have used a 12-645 with roots blower (or 8-645 with turbo) in the GP15D, and a 12-645 with turbo (or 8-710) in the GP20D. Cost probably would've been higher, but I think they would've sold better too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP15D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP20D
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby Allen Hazen » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:42 pm

Re:
"No idea what the "D" was supposed to stand for"
Trying to find a rationale for EMD model designations is an idiot's game, but... I think it stands for "diesel," as in "diesel fuel." The design goes back to a Morrison-Knudsen design which was offered in two variants: MK1500G, burning natural gas, and MK1500D, with a variant of the same Caterpillar engine set up to burn diesel oil. Subsequently re-branded as MP1500D when the Boise plant was spun off from the M-K conglomerate, then as GP1500D when they agreed to have it marketed as an EMD locomotive.

Greater mystery: why did EMD reach back into its history for the "BL" prefix on the BL20? I suppose they wanted to have a "20" in the model number somewhere to denote the horsepower (not that THAT thought seems to have occurred to them when they introduced the GP38), and the designation "GP20" had already been used.
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby MEC407 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:02 pm

I suppose they could've simply called it a GP20-2. I, too, found it odd that they went back to the BL designation.
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby v8interceptor » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:38 am

MEC407 wrote:They were called GP15D and GP20D. No idea what the "D" was supposed to stand for, but that's what they're called in all the books I've read, and that's what I recall seeing on the old EMD web site when they were still being promoted.

I imagine they would have sold a lot more of them if they had actual EMD engines under the hoods! They could have used a 12-645 with roots blower (or 8-645 with turbo) in the GP15D, and a 12-645 with turbo (or 8-710) in the GP20D. Cost probably would've been higher, but I think they would've sold better too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP15D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP20D


I have read that EMD did catalog a locomotive called a "GP2000" during the late 80s/early 90s. This, I gather, would have been basically an updated GP15 but using an 8-710 engine. They booked no orders but the idea did foreshadow the GP20Eco program. CN's large order for Eco engines being built on new frames will probably look quite similiar to what the GP2000s would have looked like...

I didn't realize that the BL20-2 was targeted at BN but that makes sense. BN did go on to have a large numbers of GP9 cores remanuctured as GP28P & GP28M units. These had many of the features of the BL20-2 (particularly new cabs and DASH 2 electrical systems) but the prime movers kept their Roots blowers and had 645 power assemblies.
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby Engineer Spike » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:47 pm

I think the reference may be to some roadswitchers which someone rebuilt for BN and SOO which had GP38 like carbodies, but Cat prime movers. They may have been called GP 15 and 20. This was in the early to mid 1990s, before the EMD_MK/MPI versions, which have bodies like the Green Goad and gen sets.
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby v8interceptor » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:32 pm

Engineer Spike wrote:I think the reference may be to some roadswitchers which someone rebuilt for BN and SOO which had GP38 like carbodies, but Cat prime movers. They may have been called GP 15 and 20. This was in the early to mid 1990s, before the EMD_MK/MPI versions, which have bodies like the Green Goad and gen sets.


These were GP20's(BN),GP9's and GP30's(SOO) rebuilt by a company called Generation II locomotive,a Twin Cities based remanufacturer that was a subsidiary of a big midwestern Caterpillar dealership (Ziegler). The units wound up being sold to Twin Cities & Western where all the units are on the roster today.

One of the BN GP20 rebuilds working for it's new owner: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rrclubum/rrvw.htm

Diagrams of the SOO units (scroll down): http://www.sooline.org/publications/dra ... tives.html
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Re: Milwauke GP20 Info

Postby Paul » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:00 pm

Just for the record, my GP-20 has a 645E and D-22 MG. Now, how many knew that EMD marketed a "645C", that being an "E" block manufactured with 567 packs? BTW, just slamming in 645 packs into a 567 does not change the engine rating or classification.
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