ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby labaienordique » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:27 am

I have two words for you: G.O. Transit (Government of Ontario). While the province has been busy trying to dismantle our passenger rail/communications/transportation network, they have been investing heavily in the Greater Toronto Area's system with infrastructure, service & performance (on time arrival) investments.

This is a double standard in my opinion & many Northern/Southern Ontarians share this view. We pay taxes & we should be entitled to these services.

We're not asking to build a line to the middle of nowhere for one passenger train. It's simply using the existing infrastructure in place & making improvements to the service where possible.

The McFauld's Lake (aka Ring of Fire) project is one opportunity for the province to get itself out of the financial situation it currently is in.

There has been zero consultation with the people affected by this divestment and this is flat out wrong.

Future is with rails, not cars
http://www.nugget.ca/2013/03/05/future- ... s-not-cars
Last edited by labaienordique on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
La CTON n'est PAS à vendre! ~ The ONTC is NOT for sale!
Une nouvelle province au Canada: le nord de l'Ontario.
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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby labaienordique » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:29 am

La CTON n'est PAS à vendre! ~ The ONTC is NOT for sale!
Une nouvelle province au Canada: le nord de l'Ontario.
A new province in Canada: Northern Ontario
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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby NH2060 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:22 pm

How difficult would it actually be for GO Transit to setup a train service in place of The Northlander?
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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby XC Tower » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:19 pm

From my personal observations, what labaienordique has said is true. Outside of the Greater Toronto area, the rest of Ontario doesn't seem to have a high priority to those making decisions, which is both unfair and a shame. There's so much more to this wonderful province of Canada. Seeing by train this land with all its wonderful towns and people has been, and remains, the best way to travel. I am forever grateful, having the honor to do so. In the near future, my hope is to take the train north once more from Toronto, seeing the beauty of the landscape and spirit of those living there. There is so much more to discover in Ontario than Toronto. (No offense to that fine city meant)
Please accept my support and encouragement in this cause..... Where there is a will, there is a way.......





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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby electricron » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:25 am

XC Tower wrote:From my personal observations, what labaienordique has said is true. Outside of the Greater Toronto area, the rest of Ontario doesn't seem to have a high priority to those making decisions, which is both unfair and a shame.
XC Tower


Of course that observation is true. All one has to do is look at the latest ridership data to figure out why.

GO Transit in Toronto = 186,000 (train), 77,000 (bus)
Northlander train = <1,000

Ontario government's publicly posted facts:
Funding has increased from $28 million annually in 2003-04 to $103 million this year.
Ridership has remained stagnant at about 320,000 rides a year.
Sales revenues have declined from $140 million in 2005 to just over $100 million this year.
The latest subsidy on the Northlander was $400 per passenger.
Private buses serve most of the same communities.
Source: http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/18652-The-End-of-Ontario-Northland
It's very hard to argue continuing Northlander train services with those lousy numbers.
p.s. There's 186 times more reasons for the government to worry about Toronto transit.
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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby dowlingm » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:24 pm

NH2060 wrote:How difficult would it actually be for GO Transit to setup a train service in place of The Northlander?
Would make much more sense for VIA to do so, given available equipment and distance involved. However with Ontario broke and VIA on a short leash that ain't happening.
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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby XC Tower » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:17 am

As a cost cutting move, would RDC's have worked as a "Northlander" consist? Was it ever suggested? Perhaps VIA Rail still has some that could be rebuilt.







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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby marquisofmississauga » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:41 pm

electricron wrote: ...

Ontario government's publicly posted facts:
Funding has increased from $28 million annually in 2003-04 to $103 million this year.
Ridership has remained stagnant at about 320,000 rides a year.
Sales revenues have declined from $140 million in 2005 to just over $100 million this year.
The latest subsidy on the Northlander was $400 per passenger.
Private buses serve most of the same communities.
Source: http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/18652-The-End-of-Ontario-Northland
It's very hard to argue continuing Northlander train services with those lousy numbers.
p.s. There's 186 times more reasons for the government to worry about Toronto transit.


There is an assumption that the above-noted facts are actually facts. I worked for the Ontario government for 30 years full time and 8 years part-time (nothing to do with transportation). One of my lesser duties was to prepare statistics and I can assure you that statistics are manipulated by managers. I have no evidence that politicians engaged in further legerdemain and will avoid drawing assumptions, however tempting it may be.

I make two points about the government's "publicly posted facts". If the Northlander carried 320,000 passengers per year and required a subsidy of $400 per passenger, then the subsidy for this train would be $128 million. That is preposterous, in the absence of any independent accounting to convince me otherwise. This train ran six days a week in each direction with a crew of four: two engineers, conductor and snack bar attendant. It is my understanding that crews changed in North Bay, so it could take eight crew members per run Cochrane-Toronto. VIA's Canadian ran three times a week until recently - and will return to thrice-weekly in May - and with four train-sets in service with a large crew, lavish meal service, and even with frequent 50% sales that train's subsidy was only about $50 million per year. In fact, this apparent $128 million subsidy for the humble Northlander was about half of VIA's entire operating subsidy for hundreds of trains per week.

Here is an ambiguous Ontario Government press release:

http://news.ontario.ca/mndmf/en/2012/03 ... ssion.html

Following the third paragraph it says "Government funding has increased from $28 million annually in 2003-04 to $103 million this year." This implies that the figures apply to the Northlander which was being discussed in that papragraph. Following "Quick Facts" it says "Government funding to the ONTC has increased by 274 per cent over the last nine years from $28 million annually to $103 million this year. "

So which is it: was the subsidy for the Northlander $103 million, or was the subsidy for the Commission $103 million, or was the subsidy for the Northlander $128 million (which I calculated above using the government's claim that the subsidy for the Northlander was $400 per passenger)?
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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby XC Tower » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:58 am

Any word on how efforts are going to bring the Northlander back? I still want to make it back to Cochrane by train for the connection to catch the Polar Bear Express....







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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby labaienordique » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:52 pm

Northern Ontario needs help. Many politicians at Queen's Park (not from Northern Ontario) seem indifferent or just don't bother responding to letters sent to them regarding this issue.

The latest:
MP Angus calls Liberals ‘lazy ass close-minded government’ on ONTC sale
http://www.baytoday.ca/content/news/details.asp?c=52827
La CTON n'est PAS à vendre! ~ The ONTC is NOT for sale!
Une nouvelle province au Canada: le nord de l'Ontario.
A new province in Canada: Northern Ontario
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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby labaienordique » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:57 pm

Train groups band together for a louder voice
http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/de ... sp?c=58482
La CTON n'est PAS à vendre! ~ The ONTC is NOT for sale!
Une nouvelle province au Canada: le nord de l'Ontario.
A new province in Canada: Northern Ontario
labaienordique
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:22 pm
Location: North Bay (ON)

Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby dowlingm » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:12 pm

Given the progress the CapeFLYER is making (see thread in MBTA) and the woeful congestion around Barrie every weekend, maybe it's time to look at a MuskokaFLYER.
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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby NS VIA FAN » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:39 pm

dowlingm wrote:Given the progress the CapeFLYER is making (see thread in MBTA) and the woeful congestion around Barrie every weekend, maybe it's time to look at a MuskokaFLYER.


It’s too bad the Newmarket Sub is severed between Barrie and just south of Washago. If not, those summer weekend GO Trains between Toronto and Barrie could have just continued on to Gravenhurst and Huntsville. From Huntsville, and possibly as far a North Bay there might be weekend demand for train service but north of there, the ONR Northlander hardly ever carried more than a bus load and that route is now by ON Buses.
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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby XC Tower » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:24 am

Is there any talk regarding the "Northlander" being brought back among the media in Ontario or the unions of the ONR?
I haven't forgotten....






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Re: ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

Postby labaienordique » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:08 pm

La CTON n'est PAS à vendre! ~ The ONTC is NOT for sale!
Une nouvelle province au Canada: le nord de l'Ontario.
A new province in Canada: Northern Ontario
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:22 pm
Location: North Bay (ON)

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