UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby Semaphore Sam » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:35 am

Any further info about this event? Causes, results of investigations, anything? Especially about the signals aspect...thanks, Sam
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby Backshophoss » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:09 pm

Can only wait for the NTSB report now, sometime next june/july.
Any type of "legal action" will happen after the report is released.
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby David Benton » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:55 am

Why does it take so long ?
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby Backshophoss » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:26 pm

The time is needed to Investagate,interview,and recreate the collision,including all "salvageable data" from the on board
event recorders. Collection of data at other locations involved is done as well.(the recordings/records at UP's Omaha DS Center for example)
Then a computer simulation of the collision is created to explain what happened.
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby David Benton » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:20 pm

yes , i can understand it taking months , but a year ???
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby Backshophoss » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:54 pm

To do it right,yes,it takes a year,NTSB does not work in haste,they want to be sure,understand what happened,the cause of the
collision,and recomandations to avoid a reoccurence in the future.
In most cases,the recomandations wind up as regualations/rules and laws.

The report/computer simulation will be used as evidence in the civil court cases as well
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby Semaphore Sam » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:47 am

This is crazy. I am an airline commercial pilot. We have the same NTSB/FAA type investigations as you guys do. The silence here is deafening ...what the hell happened??? It seems fairly simple...for whatever reason, the Eastbound overran signals...in the UK, this is known as a SPAD (Signal Passed At Danger). If causes are known, they should BE PUBLISHED, without delay. We have our speculative websites in Aviation, and all sorts of theories are thrashed out, BEFORE final results are published. This situation here is...WIMP CITY! A website is open to speculation...who knows WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED! Come on, if people have a pair, give an opinion! I love airplanes, and I love trains, and I've investigated, and speculated, on airline and railway crashes...People, GET A PAIR, and use your unique knowledge to shed light on this tragedy. Not doing so, might just lead to another. Remember, the Feds are trained to investigate, but they don't have anywhere near the knowledge and experience you do. Sam
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:26 am

Mr. Semaphore, one of the reasons that the regular membership is here at Railroad Net is because speculation about anything, especially a major incident in which there is litigation pending, is discouraged. Mr. Backshop said it all, a thorough investigation takes time.

Coming to mind within your industry is Air France 447. When the A-330 aircraft and 228 souls were lost somewhere over the Atlantic, one would have thought no conclusions could ever be reached as the hull and even the flight data recorders would not be recovered - and only speculation would abound.

But thanks to relentless recovery efforts by two sovereign nations and the French air safety investigative agency (to what extent our NTSB participated, I know not, they had no jurisdiction whatever, but possibly the French agency invited them to participate) a cause was found, and it certainly appears that the Flight Crew forgot that at times their role required them to be Pilots as distinct from Flight Managers.

Just my thought: even a twelve year old kid playing Flight Simulator knows not to pull the nose up when confronted with a stall; well maybe it takes him a "crash" or two to find out.

Please join the membership here in awaiting conclusions from the experts; there are, as you note, plenty of sites at which speculation regarding both air transport and railroad safety incidents abound.
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby JayBee » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:58 pm

The Union Pacific has reached their own conclusions as to the cause, and has sent out a briefing to employees. And that is that the Eastbound crew fell asleep, the briefing was a reminder to their crews about rest management. The only help on the horizon is Positive Train Control (PTC). There was no serious other contributing factor. The railroad doesn't want to make changes in how the trains are operated (more tightly scheduled), and the unions and the majority of their members don't want any changes that will reduce their income(fewer trips per half).

One of the problems with speculations on a railroad board is that with accidents like this, the railfans know the cause and so do the professional railroaders. With no injured parties (fatal or otherwise) except for the railroad employees involved, the professional employees feel the fans are dumping on them by publicly posting that the deceased crew fell asleep, they tend to get very defensive and at least temporarily go silent about anything depriving the railfans of inside information, some even will leave the board permanently. The NTSB is generally seen as a disinterested party, and so when they say the crew feel asleep, the professional railroader's don't take it as a personal attack. I think most railroaders rationalize the situation with the attitude that it happened to the other guy but it won't happen to me, statistically they are probably right, but most crewmen who have worked for a number of years will have had an incident where they don't remember passing a grade crossing or other point even though they know right where they are now.
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby Semaphore Sam » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:40 pm

Question...was this line once double? I understand there has been significant redoubling in the West, up until 2008, when the bottom fell out of the economy. Is this section busy enough to be doubled (or redoubled) when recovery comes? In newer aircraft, there is an alarm that sounds if nobody on the flight deck activates a switch (radio, control etc) for 10 minutes or so. Do trains have something like this? Also, the Great Western Railway in the UK had a system where a bell would sound passing an 'off' signal; passing an 'on' signal, a different sound would occur, and the brakes would be applied unless the driver cancelled the warning with a hand lever. Do US railways have something like this? I've also heard that dead man switches are no longer installed, because they could be too easily bypassed...correct? Thanks for replies, Sam
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby Backshophoss » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:48 pm

The former Rock Island/Southern Pacific route is single track with passing sidings since it was built.
When the "Golden State" passenger train ran across this route,RI/SP installed automatic block signals(ABS)
When RI went "belly up" and the real property was sold off,SSW(Cotton Belt),a part of SP,bought the route,
and rebuilt the route,retaining the ABS system,SSW was "folded" in to SP,then the UP-SP merger.

UP uses the Kansas City-El Paso route as a part of it's "Southern Transcon" to Los Angeles,
and has installed CTC across the entire route,along with extending key sidings.
There are 2 other legs on the "Southern Transcon",El Paso-New Orleans and Serria Blanca-Memphis.

All US built locomotives have some type of "Alertor" system that requires a "responce" from the crew in the cab.
UP uses Cab Signals on the "Central Trancon"(aka,"Overland Route) Omaha-Ogden.

"Crew rest" and "fatigue" issues are coming to the forefront nowadays,along with the term
"Safety Sensitive Fuctions" This will open a can of "worms" in "Hours Of Service" issues.
They are different for Pilots,Truckers,and Train crews,and might not be apportate in this thread.
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby Gadfly » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:01 pm

JayBee wrote:The Union Pacific has reached their own conclusions as to the cause, and has sent out a briefing to employees. And that is that the Eastbound crew fell asleep, the briefing was a reminder to their crews about rest management. The only help on the horizon is Positive Train Control (PTC). There was no serious other contributing factor. The railroad doesn't want to make changes in how the trains are operated (more tightly scheduled), and the unions and the majority of their members don't want any changes that will reduce their income(fewer trips per half).

One of the problems with speculations on a railroad board is that with accidents like this, the railfans know the cause and so do the professional railroaders. With no injured parties (fatal or otherwise) except for the railroad employees involved, the professional employees feel the fans are dumping on them by publicly posting that the deceased crew fell asleep, they tend to get very defensive and at least temporarily go silent about anything depriving the railfans of inside information, some even will leave the board permanently. The NTSB is generally seen as a disinterested party, and so when they say the crew feel asleep, the professional railroader's don't take it as a personal attack. I think most railroaders rationalize the situation with the attitude that it happened to the other guy but it won't happen to me, statistically they are probably right, but most crewmen who have worked for a number of years will have had an incident where they don't remember passing a grade crossing or other point even though they know right where they are now.



This is also why railroaders (in some cases) tend to distrust railfans (foamers) because they try to interject themselves into the mix. They want (some of them desperately) to BE a railroader, so they stick their noses where it doesn't belong with undocumented advice and unwelcome criticism. Is it any wonder that rail buffs are sometimes met with derision by real railroaders? I can't tell you how many times *I* have been called to task by some "foamer" saying I was "doing it wrong" because HE read it in "Trains" that it was 'supposed' to be this or that way. What they didn't know was I was doing it according to direct instructions or by the Rulebook. Their knowledge is secondhand or may not even be accurate. If the railroaders are "clamming up" it just may be due to unwarranted speculation or criticism. It, frankly, is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS until the authorities rule, and rushing to conclusions is the wrong thing to do. If the Union Pacific wanted to 'brief a bunch of rail buffs" who aren't involved in this incident, they would! But NONE of us have anything to do with this, and ours is to do just exactly as any other member of the public should do: stay OUT of it!!!!!!!!

GF
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby MBTA1016 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:34 pm

To be clear here. I have no affiliation to railroads, airlines or anything similar and no affiliation to the ntsb or government agencies. The ntsb will publish the fianl report when they feel they got all the facts right. It takes time to get everything from train speeds to what the crews rest periods were. Do everyone a favor go on the ntsb website and look at all the published final reports and you will see how in depth the investigation went. I'm not affiliated with any of the mentioned professions, I just offer my 2 cents as a railfan. End of small rant.
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby num1hendrickfan » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:45 pm

Mbta fan wrote:The ntsb will publish the fianl report when they feel they got all the facts right. It takes time to get everything from train speeds to what the crews rest periods were.
With the exception of the speed of the train and the crews rest reports, the final report is only going to paint the fact that the problem lies with the Eastbound train. You're not going to find out anything from the data recorders that were in the front locomotives as those were destroyed to the point of being essentially unusable ( which isn't surprising given the fire ). In fact I believe that is listed in the NTSB's initial report, which greatly limits just how much investigating they can do and might play a role in the final outcome as you can only speculate on what the crew of that particular train was doing.
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Re: UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

Postby MBTA1016 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:30 pm

Ok, I was responding to David bentons post asking why it's taking so long for the report to come out. I should have made that more clear when I posted.
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