Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

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Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby Dick H » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:13 pm

32 cars off. Fire, Train had 178 cars and five locomotives (Bad hair day for EHH)
From WJAC-TV

http://wjactv.com/news/local/csx-32-rai ... derailment
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby NorthPennLimited » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:04 pm

Any word on the cause of derailment?

178 cars is gigantic. What is the track geometry and terrain like in that area? Are there curves?
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby lvrr325 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:22 am

Took me two seconds to find the scene on Google based on aerial cameras, Schellsburg Street in Hyndman.

Three properties damaged - a carload of molten sulfur is on fire and burned two outbuildings behind one house, covered hoppers destroyed the end of a second house, and a third house's back porch has a gondola shoved into it. A pool of black liquid on the ground behind the second house.

What's odd is the cars are piled up on the inside of a broad curve. Would think the force would push them toward the outside of the curve.
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby Tommy Meehan » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:40 am

What surprised me is, Hyndman PA is the east end of the Sand Patch grade. A 178-car train sounds pretty big to be operating in that territory. Does anyone know if they increased the train size since Hunter Harrison took over or was that already the norm?
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby JimBoylan » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:47 am

On another Board, "String lining" was defined as pulling a very long train, like those instituted by the new CSXT official, off the inside of a curve. The example cited was "in Fostoria, OH on the connection from the C&O line to Columbus to the B&O Chicago main towards Willard".
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40968&sid=069f5a950bd94c4b9e661dce23ce8ec0
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby J.D. Lang » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:08 am

Tommy Meehan wrote:What surprised me is, Hyndman PA is the east end of the Sand Patch grade. A 178-car train sounds pretty big to be operating in that territory. Does anyone know if they increased the train size since Hunter Harrison took over or was that already the norm?


I’ve been down to that area railfaning many times over the years. Last time I was down there was about three years ago and the largest trains were some coal drags with around 100 cars and they always had helpers on the rear of the east bounds for climbing the west slope from Meyersdale up to the summit of Sand Patch and to help with dynamic braking down the east slope to Cumberland.

They may have started running longer trains over there before EHH as that was what Ward was doing on the system as a whole before EHH. From other posts part of EHH’s restructuring was to eliminate all helper districts. What amazes me is that a 178 car train with 130 loads and all the power on the head end didn’t pull any drawbars on the climb up the west slope. Also right after sand patch tunnel and at the beginning of the east downgrade is Mance curve which is a sharp horseshoe curve. I would think that train handling around that curve would be very tricky trying to control the slack run-in without manned helpers on the back. Of course we won’t know what caused the derailment until there is some kind of preliminary report from the NTSB.

It still amazes me why running a Chicago-Selkirk manifest over Sand Patch instead of over the more direct water level route is a more efficient use of your resources.

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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby Tommy Meehan » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:12 am

I found this description of Q388/Q389 on line at Train Orders dot com.

Q388/389 were rather strange trains established late last summer [2016]. They were Selkirk to Chicago/Belt Railway of Chicago trains. But not direct via Buffalo and Willard but via Philly, Cumberland and Willard and BRC. And they were only four days per week in each direction. I was told the schedules, and both trains, were scheduled to be on the Philly Sub Tue, Thu, Fri and Sun; WB around 0800 and eastbound about 1500. The cars to/from BRC at Selkirk did not ride this train; they went directly on something else. Essentially the trains were Selkirk to Cumberland with a Lordstown, OH debris/trash block and moving Cumberland cars to the BRC. No traffic went the entire distance on these trains in either direction. At times the Q389 would handle the Baltimore block from Selkirk.


It sounds like the Lordstown traffic was the overlapping traffic (operating through Cumberland). I think most of Q389's Lordstown traffic originates in New York/Philadelphia, doesn't it?
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby mmi16 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:34 pm

JimBoylan wrote:On another Board, "String lining" was defined as pulling a very long train, like those instituted by the new CSXT official, off the inside of a curve. The example cited was "in Fostoria, OH on the connection from the C&O line to Columbus to the B&O Chicago main towards Willard".
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40968&sid=069f5a950bd94c4b9e661dce23ce8ec0


Train was Eastbound, descending Sand Patch grade. As such handling Buff forces is involved in train handling, not draft forces that would cause 'string lining'. The only way string lining could happen is for the Engineer to apply too much power while brakes are still applied to the rear of the train. The accordion effect on some of the cars indicates that the inertia of the train kept pushing the derailing cars into the 'pile'.

Without deaths being involved, I doubt there will be a NTSB investigation into this incident.
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby Tommy Meehan » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:00 pm

I wondered about that too but apparently NTSB is investigating. Link Not a major investigation but I think they will release a report at some point.
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby mmi16 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:42 pm

Tommy Meehan wrote:I wondered about that too but apparently NTSB is investigating. Link Not a major investigation but I think they will release a report at some point.

Suspect with the current administration if the don't create a snow storm they may not get much in the way of funding.
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby JimBoylan » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:33 am

Friday's news 8/4/17 says there are still small fires at the scene, probably molten sulfur. Cars are being removed.
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:52 pm

Tommy Meehan wrote:I found this description of Q388/Q389 on line at Train Orders dot com.

Q388/389 were rather strange trains established late last summer [2016]. They were Selkirk to Chicago/Belt Railway of Chicago trains. But not direct via Buffalo and Willard but via Philly, Cumberland and Willard and BRC. And they were only four days per week in each direction. I was told the schedules, and both trains, were scheduled to be on the Philly Sub Tue, Thu, Fri and Sun; WB around 0800 and eastbound about 1500. The cars to/from BRC at Selkirk did not ride this train; they went directly on something else. Essentially the trains were Selkirk to Cumberland with a Lordstown, OH debris/trash block and moving Cumberland cars to the BRC. No traffic went the entire distance on these trains in either direction. At times the Q389 would handle the Baltimore block from Selkirk.


It sounds like the Lordstown traffic was the overlapping traffic (operating through Cumberland). I think most of Q389's Lordstown traffic originates in New York/Philadelphia, doesn't it?


I think we should "pass the hat" (or I guess nowadays srart a Go Fund Me page) to help Mr. Meehan with his."pay to play" dues over at UNOWARE.

It sounds as if Q388/9 is a series of "Local Freights", especially when it's noted they do some intermediate "work" operated as one continuous train.

So I guess any comments regarding Yäger and "precision railroading" need be stowed - at least regarding this incident.
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby atsf sp » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:27 pm

Where this train derailed is the bottom of the sand patch grade. There is a curve at this point coming off the mountain. This is a large train for this territory but they were getting close to this length pre EHH.
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby Statkowski » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:18 am

Had two derailments in Cherry Tree, Pa. on the RJ Corman Pennsylvania Line involving the bottom of a grade combined with a curve at the bottom. They figured it was too much weight coming down the 0.8% grade putting too much stress on the outside rail of the 14-degree curve at the bottom. Speed was not a factor. Outside rail laid down on its side from the lateral stress, 13 loaded cars ended on the ground. Ever since they reduced the train length there hasn't been a problem since.
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Re: Major Derailment in Hyndman PA

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:06 am

Sgt. Statkowski's comment leads me to wonder if "precision railroading" has annulled other trains and in turn created this 178 car monster.
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