CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

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CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby CPHOG » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:03 pm

Again speculation but it seems more and more top level management making trips to KC and S port la, and vice versa for KCS managers.



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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby mtuandrew » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:24 pm

How does the CP line to Kansas City compare with its competitors? It seems like the weak sister and a bottleneck for a CP-KCS merger when compared with the BNSF and UP routes, but maybe I'm missing something in terms of grades or other operational constraints.
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby CPHOG » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:11 am

mtuandrew wrote:How does the CP line to Kansas City compare with its competitors? It seems like the weak sister and a bottleneck for a CP-KCS merger when compared with the BNSF and UP routes, but maybe I'm missing something in terms of grades or other operational constraints.



Its not the best line we own, old ic&e, single main with short sidings, mostly 40 mph. Although we do have a ton of track work being done in MO and IA, with all the power shortages going on now Cp can move frieght from the same locals as BN and UP from, CHI, ST Paul, in the same amount of time, give BN/UP all the power they need they will blow us out of the water with train speed/tonnage they can run into and out of KC
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby mtuandrew » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:24 pm

CPHOG wrote:Its not the best line we own, old ic&e, single main with short sidings, mostly 40 mph. Although we do have a ton of track work being done in MO and IA, with all the power shortages going on now Cp can move frieght from the same locals as BN and UP from, CHI, ST Paul, in the same amount of time, give BN/UP all the power they need they will blow us out of the water with train speed/tonnage they can run into and out of KC

That's what I figured, yeah. Even if the KCS had rights from Springfield into Chicago (which I don't think it does), neither the MILW nor the Alton strike me as able to handle huge tonnage.
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby CPF363 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:10 pm

How is the condition of CP's line between Bensenville and Savanna, ILL? Is this line primarily rely jointed rail or welded rail? Does this line have CTC, ABS or is it dark territory? Is it mostly single track now?
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby CPHOG » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:18 am

CPF363 wrote:How is the condition of CP's line between Bensenville and Savanna, ILL? Is this line primarily rely jointed rail or welded rail? Does this line have CTC, ABS or is it dark territory? Is it mostly single track now?



As of the first of this year all CTC, single line starts somewhere a little past big timber and that is also jointed rail, from big timber on in to bensenville its double and all welded to tower A5 in the city. CP is running the Sh*t out of that line now, and they do an "ok" job on track maint past big timber to savanna, you know how RR like to spend money, and the track from big t on in is fantastic cause metra takes care of that.
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby CPF363 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:37 pm

CPHOG wrote:As of the first of this year all CTC, single line starts somewhere a little past big timber and that is also jointed rail, from big timber on in to bensenville its double and all welded to tower A5 in the city. CP is running the Sh*t out of that line now, and they do an "ok" job on track maint past big timber to savanna, you know how RR like to spend money, and the track from big t on in is fantastic cause metra takes care of that.

Does most of the traffic on the line go towards Kansas City or north up the Mississippi to the Mason City line and St. Paul?
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby CPHOG » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:45 am

the empty grain, oil, ethanol goes 50/50 west and north out of b-ville, all road work done west gets switched in nahant or savanna and then decided. a lot of the KC traffic goes down the river sub from st paul and then thru the DME ICE lines, we take over maybe 2-3 KCS trains and run them up to st paul/chicago from k yard in KC, 2 bound for st paul one for brc or ihb not sure with a set out in b-ville.
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby CN9634 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:38 am

KCS to CP is what IC was to CN. However, what I have trouble seeing is CP running lines in Mexico. One wonders if a big west RR, say UP or BNSF would assume ownership. Or it is entirely possible that KCS de M would still exist independent of KCS, but I don't see CP getting the whole line to Mexico City... too much to bite off in one transaction.
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby Engineer Spike » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:32 pm

We'll have to see what happens. Maybe they can fix up up the KC line. The main bottleneck is the Ottumwa hill. I wonder can some sort of grade easement can be made?

CP Hog, you say the Bensonville-Sebula line has CTC now? I was familiar with it from my BNSF days. We crossed it in Davis Jct., on the Rockford Branch, and at Savanna. It was ABS. Some guys said that the signals would fail on rainy days. Does it seem like some of the Chicago-Twin Cities traffic is being diverted this way, vs. via Milwaukee? It could be a good overflow if nothing else.



As to the point of a merger, I see several good things coming out of it. In spite of only the ICE line connecting them, CP, and KCS have some good synergies. Both are the smallest class 1 carriers. When the next round of mergers gain steam, neither of these two would be large enough to become the surviving entities. After reading books about railroad mergers, it is not always about what makes the most sense, but the egos of the managers involved matters too.

CP/KCS would be the only class 1 to serve all three countries in North America. Canada is right behind the US as a consuming nation. They have just as insatiable a desire for cheap Mexican goods. Many of the raw materials come from Canada. CPR has a strong presence in the Pacific Northwest (Vancouver), as well as serving many key eastern cities like NYC, Baltimore, Washington, Philly, New Jersey, via the D&H. KCS has a good presence in the Gulf of Mexico.

The KCS has remained independent for so long because it goes against the grain, North-south, vs. east and west.

I wonder if there is a method for the two companies to merge, without one buying the other. Fred Frairley (sp.) had posted something on Trains Blog about KCS buying CPR. There may be something other than internal finances behind this. It could be an out for Ackman, and Harrison. They have gotten the operating ratio down, but I wonder how long they can sustain it. Some of the gains have been from sales of excess equipment. Other savings have been legitimate improvements in efficiency. The sale of equipment can only benefit the company once, since once it is sold, that asset is gone. The only way to benefit multiple times is by shrewd investment of that capital, gained from the sale.

One present uncertainty is Quebec. They are talking about another referendum on separation. At least they could go via Buffalo, if that happens. Last night CPF363, and I had a conversation about this. Maybe CP could do a joint operation of the D&H, with NS. NS could throw in the Southern Tier, inorder for both companies to bring something which will benefit the other party.
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby CPHOG » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:06 pm

I'd say 1/3 of our capex budget went towards ctc. lighting will make it stop working, ctc all thru the dakotas into humbolt yard. there is still some ABS on the line maybe 8-10 mile streches west outta b-ville. Calgary came up with a plan that goes against our contract saying that all trains bound for st paul/canada will run west out of b-ville dm&e crews will handle and all trains south bound outta st paul will run to portage and those cp crews will bring em to b-ville. sorta like a big oneway circle, so were all on standyby for that idea. as for traffic being diverted... we have trains parked almost in every siding for the past 3 weeks now, we cant seem to move anything, they will send trains in whatever way they think it will make its destination, cp is hard up on dwell time they are forcing trains to leave yards knowing the system is plugged up. they just keep changing the train number when it dies in route, so when it shows up 2-3 days late the system shows it being ontime. oh the tricks they have.
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby CPF363 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:55 pm

How is the line between Savanna and Kansas City? Is this line CTC or ABS; jointed or welded rail? How are speed limits on this line? Could CP send cars from Southern Ontario bound for Kansas City be sent over the IAIS to connect with their Kansas City line at Rock island, ILL instead of running through Chicago and Savanna?
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Re: CP and KCS finally might happen in near future.

Postby JayBee » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:42 pm

CPF363 wrote:How is the line between Savanna and Kansas City? Is this line CTC or ABS; jointed or welded rail? How are speed limits on this line? Could CP send cars from Southern Ontario bound for Kansas City be sent over the IAIS to connect with their Kansas City line at Rock island, ILL instead of running through Chicago and Savanna?


It wouldn't be viable. Time would be lost in Chicago for sure, and possibly Davenport, and CP would lose revenue too.
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