Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby strench707 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:48 am

Okay so what is in place of the switch it used to protect if now its gone?

Thanks

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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby Jersey_Mike » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:05 pm

Straight rail.
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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby strench707 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:01 am

Aw but it must've been a curve with just rail since it was a crossover now just turned into a turnout, correct?

Sorry I'm more of a visual person like a chart would do me so I'm struggling to put words to a map.

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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby Sean@Temple » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:38 am

This is something that has always bothered me having been through Zoo many times and looking at diagrams (not to mention being routed through the Berry track on both legs of my trip to NYC this past weekend). I always though it was weird that the Septa trains emerged on tracks 2 and 3 and often had to wait on Amtrak trains that would emerge in on 1 and 4 as Amtrak. On the NEC the opposite is true causing both to cross over (well almost). It never made sense to me that all of the work and money went into created Zoo and then have this gross operational deficiency that flies in the face of the whole purpose of the junction. Now I may be answering my own question here but in my readings I read that the PRR usually ran its passenger trains on 1 and 4 while freight ran on 2 and 3. If this were the case that would explain why tracks 1 and 4 get a straight shot down the river line while trains via the upper level and the 36th street tunnel have the diverging route onto tracks 1 and 4. Am I right?

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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby Jersey_Mike » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:57 am

Yes. The NEC took over what had been the East Coast's major freight artery when that capacity was made redundant through rail industry consolidation and the regional collapse in manufacturing.
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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby ExCon90 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:45 pm

Also, at some time Amtrak realigned the trackage just east of the Schuylkill River bridge (MANTUA, today?) to provide a straight route from Track 3 to the duckunder instead of from Track 4 as it was under PRR. A parallel move was then possible from 4 to the duckunder, thence to either level at 30th St., simultaneously with a move from 3 to the Pittsburgh Subway, now no longer necessary. Track 4 now trails into Track 3. Eastbound proved more of a problem; a crossover move is still required to get an Amtrak train coming from the Lower Level from 1 to 2.
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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby Tadman » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:44 pm

It's amazing to look at pictures of the NEC from the 1970's and see long strings of boxcars behind E44's, stretching to the horizon. No longer. There's a killer picture in a recent Classic Trains of the flyover at Waverly around 1975 with four trains, all lead by 1-2 G's, some freight, some Amtrak.
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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby BuddSilverliner269 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:06 am

Jersey_Mike wrote:Straight rail.

technically curved rail.Haha. Unless you meant to say straight railed, but hey, who's asking :-D
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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby Jersey_Mike » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:07 am

Eastbound proved more of a problem; a crossover move is still required to get an Amtrak train coming from the Lower Level from 1 to 2.


There are two parallel crossovers at North Philly so that move can be delayed depending on what is conflicting. As I said R8's will go out track 2 and ACL trains will stay straight #1. "Fixing" the problem of Amtrak trains having to crossover will only break the system for R8's and ACL's.
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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby walnut » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:52 am

^ Let's take that assumption apart.

    If the Berry's are rebuilt into the fast route from 30th St. LL to tracks #2 and #3, then Amtrak avoids making any crossover moves on the NEC.

    SEPTA then uses the duckunders to reach tracks #1 and #4.

    The R8 northbound/eastbound would then have to cross over tracks #2 and #3 and #4 to reach the Chestnut Hill branch (currently about once per hour). However, this could be relieved with either a new flyover in North Philadelphia or by building the Swampoodle connection to remove the R8 from the NEC altogether. It could also, perhaps, run against the current of traffic on track #4 to North Philadelphia, depending on the overall line capacity and potential improvements to capacity through the reconfigured interlockings. That is a long shot, but perhaps not impossible.

    The ACL westbound must cross over tracks #2 to #3 (and perhaps #4) to reach 30th Street and move with the current of traffic. Again, this could be mitigated, if necessary, with a flying junction at Shore, most probable in the context of easing the Frankford curve to raise speeds for HSR. If you rebuild the Frankford Curve, that is the opportunity to build the flying junction. Even without the junction, I think delay is perhaps more likely to occur for inbound ACL trains as opposed to NEC trains in order to allow the crossover, suggesting that you might be able to live with the flat junction for a long time.

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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby Jersey_Mike » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:17 pm

Yes if you completely reconstruct the Connecting Railroad with two new flying junctions you will eliminate the problem. While we're at it why don't we just replace I-95 with a high speed rail corridor with 6 tracks and 5 minute headways. It can connect with the new MagLev to Chicago that will solve future congestion problems on the Harrisburg Line when the open that new Unicorn assisted cancer therapy center on the Penn campus.
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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby ExCon90 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:53 pm

Walnut's comment about the Swampoodle connection reminds me that Bridge 0.35 (I think it is), which carries Chestnut Hill West over the (former Reading) trunk, is said to be in need of major rebuilding if it is to continue in service, and I'm wondering how much of the Swampoodle connection could be paid for if the line between the connection and North Philadelphia were abandoned, making the rebuilding unneccessary (I'm assuming that the bridge itself could remain in place indefinitely as long it doesn't have to support any trains). I think the money to rebuild the bridge would be much better spent towards putting in Swampoodle, thereby getting rid of the crossover moves at LEHIGH altogether.
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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby twropr » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:19 pm

I was able to learn from Amtrak Media Relations the plan to replace crossovers and turnouts at the north end of Penn:
June 11 - 117A crossover
June 18 – 117B crossover
June 25 – 115 turnout
July 9 – 95A crossover
July 16 – 95B crossover
July 23 – 109A crossover
July 30 – 109B crossover
Are all these #8 or #10 turnouts/crossovers or are some being replaced with turnouts that allow higher speed?

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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby Jersey_Mike » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:27 pm

No speed improvements, just remedying wear and tear.
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Re: Into Philly by way of the "Berrys"

Postby strench707 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:52 pm

Will they be electric switches or pneumatic?

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