All Aboard Ohio and OH proposals (Ohio 3C Corridor)

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Re: Ohio Hub Gets A DOT "grant"

Postby JackRussell » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:14 pm

travelrobb wrote:The House has already approved the omnibus appropriations bill; the Senate will follow on Sunday.


I tried reading through the bill, and it was hard to make sense of. There are lots of different sections with relevant pieces. In some cases they state that the monies cannot be used for planning purposes (i.e. it can be used to actually build something, and not just fund another round of studies).

Once the Senate finishes with it, it would be worthwhile to go through and identify all of the pieces that are relevant including any restrictions on how the monies can be used.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby 2nd trick op » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:30 pm

justalurker 66 wrote:

Gotta build a train to bring in all the Detroit gamblers to the new Ohio casinos.


Given the current state of Detroit's economy, I suspect the high-rollers will be confined to penny-ante in the back rooms of "blind pigs" (after-hours nightspots).
What a revoltin' development this is! (William Bendix)
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby jstolberg » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:20 pm

mtuandrew wrote:
bmichel5581 wrote:Did anyone else notice this on the 3C is ME page?

"DMU Preferred For 3C Passenger Rail"
with a link to a PDF comparing DMU to Loco hauled consists.
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Ra ... 111909.pdf

*sigh* here we go again?


I love the idea of practical DMUs in this country, but Ohio is barking up the wrong tree if they think US Railcar's products will be practical. They can bid when they've solved all of CRC's reliability problems, shaved off tons from each car, and figured out where they can build and maintain their monstrosities. I'd suggest somewhere in Columbus, so they can keep lobbying the Ohio legislature and governor while they rebuild the 3-C cars every night.

Amtrak said that conventional equipment would cost $175 million and take "several years" to acquire, so it isn't surprising that Ohio went looking for alternatives.

US Railcar is offering to cut the cost to $125 million and the time to 2.5 years.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby Nasadowsk » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:37 pm

jstolberg wrote:Amtrak said that conventional equipment would cost $175 million and take "several years" to acquire, so it isn't surprising that Ohio went looking for alternatives.

US Railcar is offering to cut the cost to $125 million and the time to 2.5 years.


I'll offer to cut it to 100 million and 1 year. Act now, I'll toss in a free bridge, too. It's a beautiful, service proven, suspension one.

US Railcar bought up a design that get an A for effort and an F- for execution. Nobody in their right mind would buy a Cor-Ten steel, cast trucked, heavyweight design in this day and age. The WES cars are by all accounts, not very reliable, were late and required a LOT of extra money (why are any of the folks surrounding CRC still walking the streets?), The Tri-Rail ones work, mostly. Until they break. Where is anyone going to find parts? How many transmissions does Voith keep on the shelf? Heck, do they even HAVE a US sales office? (Yep - they do - for their paper products, though they apparently do handle rail. but click on rail links, and you go to a .de address)

My guess is if there's enough interest in FRA compliant DMUs, someone else will step forward. Given that nobody in the US is seriously considering one, and there's no other market, period for them, I suspect all the usual suspects have decided to just let US Railcar corner the market (all 5 units or so).

My guess is that Ohio will hit the same conclusion Wisconsin did. Tilt's a bonus - it's the light weight that's selling those things.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby electricron » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:02 am

Nasadowsk wrote:My guess is if there's enough interest in FRA compliant DMUs, someone else will step forward. Given that nobody in the US is seriously considering one, and there's no other market, period for them, I suspect all the usual suspects have decided to just let US Railcar corner the market (all 5 units or so).
My guess is that Ohio will hit the same conclusion Wisconsin did. Tilt's a bonus - it's the light weight that's selling those things.


It's not true there's no one else looking at FRA compliant DMUs. I know for sure that SMART wants to buy FRA compliant DMUs. Their pre RFP RFI has several responses, including Kawasaki, Siemens, Rotem, and US Railcar. The Siemens design looks awesome.

http://www.sonomamarintrain.org/userfiles/file/SMART%20board%20meeting021109.pdf

There's a traditional blunt/square nose Siemens design with doors so passengers can walk from one car to another. The streamline nose will come in married pairs. SMART also got an answer that a trailer car could be installed between the two married pair halves.

US Railcar doesn't have a factory, Siemens does. Siemens doesn't have a working model, US Railcar does. Who knows which manufacturer will win the SMART DMU order. Their RFP should be released next year.

If DART and FWTA can't get the Stadler GTW certified as Alternate Compliant, they too will be looking for a FRA certified DMU for the Cotton Belt - SW2NE project.
Last edited by electricron on Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby Vincent » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:41 am

The Siemens/SMART and US RailCar designs require high level platforms which may become an obstacle if the rest of the Midwest High Speed Rail Project decides to go with low level rolling stock (Talgo?). The Siemens Desiro has a maximum operating speed of 55mph and the Siemens/SMART design is proposing a max speed of 79 mph. If the 3C corridor ever wants to integrate with the larger Midwest HSR network, equipment commonality will be required. Buying 79 mph equipment and building incompatible platforms might look like a bad decision 20 years from now when the rest of the Midwest is whizzing around at 110+mph.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby electricron » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:45 pm

You have a valid point. But looking at world HSR trainset designs, not many have low floors. Talgo trainsets, because of their unique wheel design, is it. All those standard height trainsets with traditional bogeys have high floors over the bogeys.

Another reason the Talgo trainsets could be very popular in America, not having to build high station platforms everywhere. But I believe California HSR would build dedicated high platforms for HSR if required.
I believe Amtrak would too.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby D.Carleton » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:19 pm

Nasadowsk wrote:Nobody in their right mind would buy a Cor-Ten steel, cast trucked, heavyweight design in this day and age.

I'm not about to jump in the tank for the CRC DMU but here are some numbers to ponder:

RDC-1 weight: 120,000 lbs.
DMU (single level): 148,000 lbs.

Possibly the closest vehicle out there that comes close to meeting US specs is the VLocity 160 in Australia.

Weight: 159,000 lbs.

Just how light can one make a US FRA compliant DMU?
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby electricron » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:23 pm

Somewhere between 120,000 and 148,000 lbs. FYI, the weight of the supposedly light weight Stadler GTW 2/6 (CapMetro) is 140,000 lbs. That's for the 2/6 model GTW that's 134 ft long. If it were 85 ft long, its proportional weight would be approximately 89,000 lbs.

For comparison purposes only:
The MPXpress MP-36PH diesel locomotive most transit agencies are buying new today weighs 285,000 to 295,000 lbs.
A Bombardier BiLevel weighs 118,000 lbs. A Superliner weighs 148,000 lbs.
A US Railcar DMU (CRC design) single level weighs 148,000 lbs.
A Budd RDC-1 weighs 120,000 lbs.

Just for the fun of the exercise:
A two unit Stadler GTW 2/6 train can seat 216 passengers (108 per unit including flip-up seats), weighing 280,000 lbs., averaging 1300 lbs. per passenger per train.
A two car Bombardier BiLevel trains can seat 298 passengers (136 cab and 162 trailer), weighing 521,000 lbs. including locomotive, averaging 1,700 lbs. per passenger per train.
A two unit US Railcar DMU train (TriMet) can seat 154 passengers ( 74 dmu and 80 trailer), weighing 296,000 lbs., averaging 1900 lbs. per passenger per train.
A two car Budd RDC train (TRE) can seat 192 passengers (96 each), weighing 240,000 lbs., averaging 1250 lbs. per passenger per train.

On the lightweight scale, the old, reliable Budd RDCs wins. Surprisingly, the US Railcar DMU loses.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby jstolberg » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:11 pm

Ohio should not be looking at commuter cars for 3C service. The US Railcar seating plans used for comparison have a 32" seat pitch, typical for a commuter application. But for longer rides, passengers need more room to spread out. Amfleet I cars have a seat pitch of about 37" and Superliners are 51" seatback to seatback. The Talgos on Amtrak's Cascades service have a seat pitch of 39". Ohio should be looking for cars with a seat pitch of 37" to 42" considering the duration of the trip. And of course, business class should be offered with considerably more room.

Train customers expect to have more room than airline passengers. That's one of the reasons they take the train. If Ohio gets cramped commuter cars, they will soon be disappointed.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby jstolberg » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:07 pm

Looks like Governor Strickland jumped the gun a little. The Cleveland Plain Dealer quotes him as saying Ohio will get $400 million for the Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati route.
http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2010/01/gov_ted_strickland_says_ohio_w.html
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby justalurker66 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:16 pm

Or perhaps "Dewey Beats Truman" ... we'll find out soon enough.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby Tadman » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:36 pm

The seat pitch is something that can be customized with orders I would assume.

I'm curious if seat pitch and spacing is an issue the common traveler notices. Most people I know assume a seat is a seat, be it on Metra, Amtrak, Southwest, Greyhound, or Cathay Pacific. They are surprised when I explain an Amtrak superliner seat is much larger than SWA airline coach. I think seat pitch and spacing is a concept known to experienced travelers, railfans, and American Airlines advertising folks. In other words, I bet Sumitomo gallery coaches would be just as well suited to this service as gee-whiz trainsets off fantasy island.
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby jstolberg » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:38 pm

justalurker66 wrote:Or perhaps "Dewey Beats Truman" ... we'll find out soon enough.

Confirmed!
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/fact-sheet-high-speed-intercity-passenger-rail-program-cleveland-columbus
Length 250 miles
"The corridor will connect 12 economically-distressed counties."
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Re: Ohio 3C Corridor website up, new information.

Postby Tadman » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:04 am

I ran across this today: pictures of the locomotive bought for the last attempt at 3C

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=54509&nseq=2
http://railpictures.net/showphotos.php? ... for%20Ohio
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