All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby east point » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:34 pm

Anyone know where an updated track plan is located ?. Had one but cannot find it now ?
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby ThirdRail7 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:06 pm

ExCon90 wrote:
andrewjw wrote:Where is this Villanova interlocking documented? Where is the suggestion that it will replace Bryn Mawr, instead of augment?

I've seen a track diagram, but I forget who showed it to me. VILLA, west of the station, and NOVA, east of it, will enable a train to cross over from 2 to 1 or 3 to 4 for the station stop, then back to 2 or 3 after the stop -- much like ISELIN and MENLO (Metropark) on the NEC. No idea what the target date is. Maybe someone knows whether it's accessible on the net.


It is an internal document (that was actually updated last month) that has the long term vision of various corridors (Albany line, NEC, etc.) Villa and Nova are little more detailed than ExCon90 described but that isn't really important. What is important is this updated vision rationalizes Bryn Mawr interlocking. It doesn't replace it.The remnants of Bryn Mawr will be a carbon copy of Menlo Interlocking, but equipped with high speed switches.
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby andrewjw » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:59 am

Does this imply Amtrak might move to Bryn Mawr or Villanova instead of Ardmore?
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby AmtrakLocomotiveEngineer » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:50 pm

andrewjw wrote:Does this imply Amtrak might move to Bryn Mawr or Villanova instead of Ardmore?

No. Bryn Mawr is the closest interlocking to Ardmore to get westbounds back over to 3 or take eastbounds from 2 to 1 when working at ARD when SEPTA locals are west of Brynn Mawr.
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby andrewjw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:57 pm

I'm not sure how current Ardmore operations inform future Amtrak station service. In fact, the large distance to Bryn Mawr vs. a MENLO/ISLEN like interlocking at VILLA/NOVA would seem to suggest Villanova as a better station!
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby ExCon90 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:43 pm

Operationally it would be easier, but there would be some significant local opposition to eliminating Ardmore as a stop; for one thing there's better access by local transportation to Ardmore than to Villanova.
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby ChesterValley » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:40 am

As a relatively local resident, Ardmore has better access to the local area being closer to a major road and artery in Lancaster ave and Montgomery ave.

To give some context about the area: 103, 104, and 106 routes stop at Ardmore to loop back to 69th and 44 to Cynwyd, 105 stops at Ardmore and Stops at Villanova but is a half a mile from Nova station right next door to the P&W stop. Admittedly, the buses can simply be rerouted to accommodate the change but SEPTA will get an earful about it. Nova is right next to Blue Route/Lancaster ave interchange which could lead to more park and ride commuters from Conshy, especially with Villanova university increasing in size. Although there are more reverse commuters who use Radnor and Wayne stations to get to the business parks at Radnor and King of Prussia respectivly. Operationally I can see why it would be better to use Nova because of the straight of way, as a local user of Radnor station I'm annoyed slightly.

What I would be curious about is how this will effect dispatching for the Paoli line, more specifically if they could increase headway for the line.
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby Suburban Station » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:11 pm

ExCon90 wrote:Operationally it would be easier, but there would be some significant local opposition to eliminating Ardmore as a stop; for one thing there's better access by local transportation to Ardmore than to Villanova.

Villanova would largely serve as a park n ride I think. I'm sure the university would generate some keystone ridership west of phl njt students aren't likely to be riding amtrak to nyp. Ardmore is close to a dense cluster of agr riders in lower merion. I agree that amtrak better have its ducks in a row if it plans on shuttering ardmore...a ridership study perhaps but ultimately I suspect penndot would make the call, after all they are helping to fund a new station in ardmore
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby nova08 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:23 pm

Suburban Station wrote:
ExCon90 wrote:Operationally it would be easier, but there would be some significant local opposition to eliminating Ardmore as a stop; for one thing there's better access by local transportation to Ardmore than to Villanova.

Villanova would largely serve as a park n ride I think. I'm sure the university would generate some keystone ridership west of phl njt students aren't likely to be riding amtrak to nyp. Ardmore is close to a dense cluster of agr riders in lower merion. I agree that amtrak better have its ducks in a row if it plans on shuttering ardmore...a ridership study perhaps but ultimately I suspect penndot would make the call, after all they are helping to fund a new station in ardmore

The university would actually generate eastbound traffic. I wouldn’t be surprised if 25-50% of the students are from the NJ, NY, CT area and would definitely opt for Amtrak over public transportation connections. That balloons to 50-75 if you consider MD, DC and MA. Though that alone would not sustain a stop considering the small size of the school.

Ardmore confuses me. It seems too close to philly but then if it were Bryn Mawr or Villanova, they are closer to Paoli.
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby Suburban Station » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:10 pm

nova08 wrote:The university would actually generate eastbound traffic. I wouldn’t be surprised if 25-50% of the students are from the NJ, NY, CT area and would definitely opt for Amtrak over public transportation connections. That balloons to 50-75 if you consider MD, DC and MA. Though that alone would not sustain a stop considering the small size of the school.

Ardmore confuses me. It seems too close to philly but then if it were Bryn Mawr or Villanova, they are closer to Paoli.

The problem is those locations are well served by buses just across the street from 30th st st much lower prices. There would certainly be some traffic but how much remains to be seen. The septa stop handles fewer people than the ardmore stop. Bryn mawr is a logical midpoint between the two and a short uber/Lyft ride for a lot of the market in both directions. As you know, that area is also home to a lot of nova students.
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby andrewjw » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:55 pm

Suburban Station wrote:The problem is those locations are well served by buses just across the street from 30th st st much lower prices. There would certainly be some traffic but how much remains to be seen. The septa stop handles fewer people than the ardmore stop. Bryn mawr is a logical midpoint between the two and a short uber/Lyft ride for a lot of the market in both directions. As you know, that area is also home to a lot of nova students.

The SEPTA buses you speak of are slow, late, and a much less pleasant ride than the SEPTA regional rail. They usually require a transfer to the MFSE, except the 44. Despite being cheaper, they gave considerably lower patronage than the parallel stops on the SEPTA regional rail. Nova students who want to transfer to Amtrak probably take SEPTA regional rail to 30th, currently.
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby Suburban Station » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:57 pm

andrewjw wrote:
Suburban Station wrote:The problem is those locations are well served by buses just across the street from 30th st st much lower prices. There would certainly be some traffic but how much remains to be seen. The septa stop handles fewer people than the ardmore stop. Bryn mawr is a logical midpoint between the two and a short uber/Lyft ride for a lot of the market in both directions. As you know, that area is also home to a lot of nova students.

The SEPTA buses you speak of are slow, late, and a much less pleasant ride than the SEPTA regional rail. They usually require a transfer to the MFSE, except the 44. Despite being cheaper, they gave considerably lower patronage than the parallel stops on the SEPTA regional rail. Nova students who want to transfer to Amtrak probably take SEPTA regional rail to 30th, currently.

I'm referring to bolt and megabus services that are an easy transfer across the street from 30th.
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby ExCon90 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:58 pm

I took Suburban Station's post to mean that students would take SEPTA Regional Rail to 30th St. to catch the cheap buses that leave from across the street for NEC destinations, never using Amtrak at all; a likely choice for impecunious students.
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby STrRedWolf » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:38 pm

Suburban Station wrote:I'm referring to bolt and megabus services that are an easy transfer across the street from 30th.


Bolt/Megabus has flaws. The big three I can think of are:
  • Bolt/Megabus are pre-pay only, and do not have a monthly/weekly pass. Think "Greyhound" with more capacity per bus.
  • Those are double-decker buses. You got height restrictions under bridges! The route needs to be carefully planned...
  • ...and the big one, the train is on a dedicated track and goes on average... what, 75-80 MPH? Way above highway speeds, which max out at 70 MPH? And the train doesn't have much traffic to contend? While such a bus would have to contend with drivers at different times of the day (let alone that lemon on the left).

Besides, doesn't SEPTA have commuter buses as well?
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Re: All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

Postby ryanov » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:27 pm

I took Greyhound to Pittsburgh once in college (from Philadelphia, back to Newark, using NJT to make up the extra -- to my surprise, the Newark trip was much shorter and more direct). I didn't take it twice.
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