NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, gprimr1, Amtrak67 of America, Tadman

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby STrRedWolf » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:24 pm

EuroStar wrote:There are optical cables "attached to the Portal Bridge" that are "the main lines into NYC and provide data transmission for Wall Street". Some of these cables are being relocated for by the preliminary work. That was news to me. I have to ponder where the fiber optic cables cross the Palisades and the Hudson river. If it is the existing tunnels under the river that would be just WOW!


WOW is right. If those lines go via the Hudson River tunnels, having those tunnels collapse means at minimum heavy latency, at most a good chunk of connectivity failure, but ether way our entire economy takes a hit.
"The last and final stop is BALTIMORE PENN STATION." I can has MARC V?
User avatar
STrRedWolf
 
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby east point » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:41 pm

Amendment to post. Probably there are multi parallel fiber cables across the Hudson with instant switching between cables. They might even be run in parallel seamlessly ?
east point
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby Greg Moore » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:33 pm

Yes, there's a number of routings across the Hudson, most likely through all tunnels (road and rail) and the GWB. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some microwave links.

The system is multiply redundant and would have fairly decent switching capabilities.

The higher end trading companies generally have their own links. It's a small price to pay against the possible losses of a broken connection.
Check out QuiCR, Quick, Crowdsourced Responses for businesses.
Greg Moore
 
Posts: 5177
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:15 am
Location: IT Consultant

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby Jenny on a M2 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:19 am

Greg Moore wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if there's some microwave links.


There are. I've personally only dealt with the private links for work, but I recall seeing microwave antennae of both types on Verizon's building at W53rd and 10th so I'd bet one of those links is for public redundancy.
Jenny on a M2
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:33 am
Location: Somewhere along the New Haven Line

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby Ken W2KB » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:31 pm

There are several existing submarine high voltage electric transmission cables between New Jersey and New York under the Hudson, up to 345,000 Volts. Compared to that, I would think that a submarine fiber cable would be feasible, no need for use of existing tunnels. Perhaps they already are some?
~Ken :: Fairmont ex-UP/MP C436 MT-14M1 ::
Black River Railroad Historical Trust :: [/url]
User avatar
Ken W2KB
 
Posts: 5717
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:27 pm
Location: Lebanon Township, Hunterdon County, New Jersey & Tiverton, RI USA

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby Nasadowsk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:35 pm

Ken W2KB wrote:There are several existing submarine high voltage electric transmission cables between New Jersey and New York under the Hudson, up to 345,000 Volts. Compared to that, I would think that a submarine fiber cable would be feasible, no need for use of existing tunnels. Perhaps they already are some?


Maybe up near the Tappen Zee? The NYSE's big data center is over by Rt17 and Mahwah, afterall.

Oh wait, I'm not supposed to say that, am I? I mean, it's marked on Google maps...

(The building stands out like a sore thumb anyway)
Nasadowsk
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:45 pm

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby STrRedWolf » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:16 am

Nasadowsk wrote:Maybe up near the Tappen Zee? The NYSE's big data center is over by Rt17 and Mahwah, afterall.

Oh wait, I'm not supposed to say that, am I? I mean, it's marked on Google maps...

(The building stands out like a sore thumb anyway)


Doesn't really matter. You nuke NYC, and most of the economy goes (most, because some exchanges are in Chicago).
"The last and final stop is BALTIMORE PENN STATION." I can has MARC V?
User avatar
STrRedWolf
 
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby daybeers » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:02 pm

Not sure if this was already posted or if anyone had seen this interesting opinion article.
daybeers
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:13 pm

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby Backshophoss » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:29 am

NY Daily News doesn't quite understand that the current bridge is too old and costly to maintain,like Walk bridge in Norwalk Ct,if it opens for
barge traffic,it may not lock back up when closed,and the delays would multiply fast!
The river should be closed to barge traffic and the bridge straight railed, but the Coast Guard protests the closure for 1-2 remaining barge
customers beyond Portal Bridge! :(
There's a need for a second bridge to line up with the Gateway tunnels to NY Penn.
Backshophoss
 
Posts: 5605
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby EuroStar » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:09 am

The article is old and while it contains some true facts it is quite weak in the arguments it makes. Recently the Gateway Development Corporation released a set of "mythbusters" that reveal that most of the typical complaints to be unreasonable. You can read those here http://www.gatewayprogram.org/content/dam/nec/gdc-press/2018-10-11%20Mythbusters%20w%20Attachment.pdf. The writer has no understanding that a four track bridge is quite difficult to build and that such bridges are rare for a reason, most of the time there are two two-track bridges next to each other. He also does not get the fact that four tracks over the river do not resolve the problem that there are only two tracks east and west of the bridge(s). It is also incorrect that the bridge does not open. It does and there is already an agreement with the Coast Guard for openings to not happen during rush hour. The problem really is that when the bridge opens outside of rush hour and gets stuck it takes hours to fix and the delays spill over into rush hour.

If the railroad was private, they could try to buy out the one-two barge customers up the river and be done with that, but the state (or Amtrak as a state entity) cannot really do that. Even then the Coast Guard is unlikely to allow welding the existing bridge in place. For example, while there has been no river traffic up the Passaic River for decades, the Newark Drawbridge on the Morris&Essex line is still required to be movable.

The one fact from the article that is unfortunately true is the requirement for 10% capacity increase for the federal funding. They are trying to fudge this by using an old baseline with fewer MLV cars, and that is likely to end up being the reason why the Trump Administration will deny the funds. While it is true that with a fixed bridge they might claim capacity increase through the higher seeds allowed on the new bridge and as a result more trains, the capacity is constrained east and west of the bridge and that will not allow for the 10% increase to be realized by completing this project alone.
EuroStar
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:26 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby Ryand-Smith » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:29 pm

EuroStar wrote:The article is old and while it contains some true facts it is quite weak in the arguments it makes. Recently the Gateway Development Corporation released a set of "mythbusters" that reveal that most of the typical complaints to be unreasonable. You can read those here http://www.gatewayprogram.org/content/dam/nec/gdc-press/2018-10-11%20Mythbusters%20w%20Attachment.pdf. The writer has no understanding that a four track bridge is quite difficult to build and that such bridges are rare for a reason, most of the time there are two two-track bridges next to each other. He also does not get the fact that four tracks over the river do not resolve the problem that there are only two tracks east and west of the bridge(s). It is also incorrect that the bridge does not open. It does and there is already an agreement with the Coast Guard for openings to not happen during rush hour. The problem really is that when the bridge opens outside of rush hour and gets stuck it takes hours to fix and the delays spill over into rush hour.

If the railroad was private, they could try to buy out the one-two barge customers up the river and be done with that, but the state (or Amtrak as a state entity) cannot really do that. Even then the Coast Guard is unlikely to allow welding the existing bridge in place. For example, while there has been no river traffic up the Passaic River for decades, the Newark Drawbridge on the Morris&Essex line is still required to be movable.

The one fact from the article that is unfortunately true is the requirement for 10% capacity increase for the federal funding. They are trying to fudge this by using an old baseline with fewer MLV cars, and that is likely to end up being the reason why the Trump Administration will deny the funds. While it is true that with a fixed bridge they might claim capacity increase through the higher seeds allowed on the new bridge and as a result more trains, the capacity is constrained east and west of the bridge and that will not allow for the 10% increase to be realized by completing this project alone.


Isn't there 1 oil barge that does a run up the river? I thought they were the only customers.
Ryand-Smith
 
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:26 pm

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby electricron » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:25 pm

Ryand-Smith wrote:Isn't there 1 oil barge that does a run up the river? I thought they were the only customers.

Whether it is just one, a dozen, or a hundred customers, the Surface Transportation Board frowns on leaving customers without service. It rarely allows customers to be abandoned, short of bankruptcy being the cause of the disruption.

How many are helped or hurt may be considered, with economic impacts also being considered with a private project, but not with a public project. Suppose you or your company had just invested a billion dollars on a factory with access to cheap transportation, and the government wanted to cut your preferred transportation link completely off without compensation, how would you feel about It? Principles count out in the real world, because once government takes an action to kill a business, it sets the ground work to kill all further businesses in a like manner, because a precedence would have been set.
electricron
 
Posts: 4349
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:58 am

Ryand-Smith wrote:Isn't there 1 oil barge that does a run up the river? I thought they were the only customers.

Hess did have barges up the river to Bogota, but the facility might have closed. The new NJ Route 7 bridge (Wittpenn Bridge) being built now will be a lift span, though higher than the current 1930 lift bridge.
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.
User avatar
R36 Combine Coach
 
Posts: 5223
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:51 pm

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby Arlington » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:20 pm

Could some generous soul update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_Bridge based on recent funding information?
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3680
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: NEC Portal Bridge Thread - Operation, Replacement Etc.

Postby daybeers » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:06 am

Arlington wrote:Could some generous soul update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_Bridge based on recent funding information?

What would you like updated? Also, does anyone have a good picture of the bridge that they're willing to upload to Wikimedia Commons? The current picture used for the Wikipedia article is terrible quality.
daybeers
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:13 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Amtrak

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CNJGeep, Jenny on a M2 and 16 guests