What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby jmar896 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:45 pm

daybeers wrote:
benboston wrote:Amtrak could use all of the extra trains to make a new service between Boston and Buffalo. This is a perfect corridor because with appropriate track upgrades the travel time could be drastically reduced. At about 500 miles it is only 50 miles longer than the NEC. Also, it has a large amount of decently sized cities, Boston, Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Schenectady, Rochester, Syracuse, Buffalo, Utica. This means that if they made it into a high-frequency service, then the ridership would be quite high.

I think you're dreaming a bit here :P What track upgrades would you suggest? Due to hills, the travel time, especially between Boston and Albany, is quite a bit longer than driving.


I think that a Boston-Buffalo service could certainly be viable. Why? Saves a lot of driving, and could be at a comparable cost, especially for those travelling with one or two people. I go from Worcester to Rochester several times a year, it runs about $130 in gas and tolls alone both ways (getting about 23MPG). It takes 6-7.5 hrs depending on traffic. LSL takes 9 hours to get here, which includes the hour in Albany to switch the train. Even at the existing time I know many people that use it to get here to ROC, primary issue is the train arrives at 9PM. If they shaved that down to 7 hours and had more frequency it would certainly be considerable for a lot of people I think, especially those travelling for college or business. I would choose it, but I have to have my car while I am here. The fare on the LSL is around $55 for the trip, which is about the same or cheaper than most bust service.

It also has transfer opportunities to go to Conn & NYC from Springfield, which would add more potential passengers to the route. If they did have the extra motive power from the Charger order & better coach availability from Amfleet replacements I think it would be a viable corridor to try.
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby eolesen » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:12 pm

I'm more interested in what might happen to the locomotives than I am about hypothetical new corridor that might be able to be started up...

If GE could redo the loading to a racehorse setting, I could still see some interest in the commuter sector.

Think of how many commuter agencies got their starts with hand-me-downs from GO Transit...
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby benboston » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:52 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong the Downeaster uses P42s, and the Downeaster has very short distance between stops, by no means is it a LD route.
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby eolesen » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:23 pm

You're right, it's a typical commuter schedule, and with a P42, I guess it's a good thing it's a short train...
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby superstar » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:35 am

east point wrote:Our understanding is the slow loading of the P-42s is a result of having to meet EPA emissions requirements. Fast acceleration means too much co2 and Noz.

I believe the Genesis units were built to Tier 0 specs (effectivethrough 2001, if my memory is correct), and they have not been rebuilt since, so they are still held to that standard, which is not much, and the same as the SDP40s and F40PHs. Any difference in performance is going to be due to GE's design, not regulatory requirements.
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby kitn1mcc » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:43 pm

the EMD are 2 stroke roots blown motor. they have faster throttle response than a 4 stroke. also the 4 stroke suffers from turbo lag more.

ever see how long an rs-3 loads
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby mtuandrew » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:13 pm

Why are RS-3s relevant? At least compare an LRC power car, it’s not the same generation but at least is more broadly comparable to the Genesis in terms of role and horsepower.

Some F40PHs have ended up in freight operation, being a glorified GP40 after all. In a lot of ways, a P42DC is a miniaturized Dash 9-40BW. On a scale from never to never, how likely is it that Geneses will enter freight or MOW service?
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby dgvrengineer » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:58 pm

kitn1mcc wrote:the EMD are 2 stroke roots blown motor. they have faster throttle response than a 4 stroke. also the 4 stroke suffers from turbo lag more.

ever see how long an rs-3 loads


EMD F40/GP40 are turbo charged not roots blown. The EMD turbos are different than the GE. GE run off air intake only so they are slow to react until enough air pressure builds up to get them spinning. Alco used the same method which was the main cause of the black smoke on throttle up until the turbos could spin faster. EMD uses a gear driven turbo so it provides immediate air pressure to the power assemblies. After the air pressure reaches a certain speed, a clutch cuts out the gear drive and the EMD turbo runs on air pressure only. It is higher maintenance but provides faster response.
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby Leo_Ames » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:34 pm

mtuandrew wrote:Some F40PHs have ended up in freight operation, being a glorified GP40 after all. In a lot of ways, a P42DC is a miniaturized Dash 9-40BW. On a scale from never to never, how likely is it that Geneses will enter freight or MOW service?


Next to none.

We're already reaching the twilight for GE's Dash 8 line on North American Class 1's, which were GE's premier freight power when the P40 was first introduced. And while some operators are rebuilding their Dash 9's for continued service, substantial numbers on other lines are well worn and stored and the market is a limited one for them in secondary ownership. Even AC4400CW's may be threatened soon such as the small BNSF fleet that has seen lots of storage time in recent years (Although Union Pacific and CPR have entered into major rebuild programs for their large fleets and the CSX and KCS fleets are keeping busy).

With such a surplus of contemporary GE power that was designed and built for hauling freight, it's difficult to imagine such specialized passenger power being put to such use. Maybe Amtrak could use some as work engines, but even there I doubt there's a need. They seem to be getting along just fine with the power they do have and if they did want new power, it's not difficult to acquire a overhauled MP15 or GP38-2 that would do the job better.
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby eolesen » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:27 pm

Not every short line can deal with six axle locomotives, so the surplus Dash 8's and Dash 9's aren't a fit for everyone.

I agree it's unlikely to see them move into freight, but there are some lines who will buy anything that's priced right...
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:18 pm

FRA has certain restriction on car body locomotives, so a Gennie is not a good choice for a shortline .
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby Tadman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:00 pm

Seconded, you will not see the Gennie in freight service. It's a lightweight monocoque body, not designed for hauling tonnage. There are no footboards or ladders to switch from. The gearing is too fast. It's just not meant for anything like freight service. Heck they load slow on a passenger train, imagine a real freight behind one. Or two or three.

Consider the other possibilities:

The definite-no's.
1. Those with domestic sources, IE Russia and Europe
2. Narrow gauge, IE South Africa and Brazil
3. Broad gauge, IE Argentina, Australia, India
4. Recent SC44 buyers, IE Amtrak, Via, Brightline, MARC
5. Recent MPI buyers - GO, MBTA, Sounder, VRE, MARC
6. Recent F125 buyers - Metrolink
7. All electric routes - South Shore, SEPTA, soon Caltrain

The maybes
1. Alaska
2. Steam program backup (Friends of 261 just bought an E9)
3. OCS power for class I

What does that leave you?
ACE, CDOT,

Keep in mind also that once Caltrain goes electric, there will be another 30 diesels on the market. All of them are new or rebuilt since around 2000 and probably pretty gently used compared to the Gennies, which were used hard.

Looks like Sanford and Son might be the real home for a lot of these, and they've earned it to say the least.
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby mtuandrew » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:29 pm

Exactly what I’d figure too. Even OCS duty is in the extremely unlikely category for Geneses - the roles are all full with heritage, F40, or simple wide-cab freight units. Alaska Railroad is the same, nothing but freight power for them.

I bet Amtrak could still get some coin for the P42s though, especially the fully-PTC-equipped units. No joke, what about LIRR?
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby eolesen » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:46 pm

All good points...

Alaska invested in HEP equipped SD70ACe's a few years back, and really doesn't need to replace those anytime soon.

Maybe someone like Iowa Pacific? Grand Canyon RR?

Mexico?...
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Re: What will happen to P40/P42 locomotives?

Postby Leo_Ames » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:46 am

eolesen wrote:Not every short line can deal with six axle locomotives, so the surplus Dash 8's and Dash 9's aren't a fit for everyone.


Been little market even for the four axle Dash 8's. Norfolk Southern not long ago for example sent scores of B32-8's to scrap since there just wasn't a market. They date from around 1989 at a point when the Dash 8 line was mature and ready for prime time, and aren't much older than the P40's. They also had standard cabs like short lines and regionals prefer and at 3,200 horsepower, had power levels and fuel efficiency more in line with what a short line could take advantage of compared to a fuel guzzling 4,000+ horsepower locomotive.
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