Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby east point » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:10 pm

Just had a thought. As the new cars come into service maybe Amtrak will allocate ( when that happens ) the AM-1s to LD service? If the best condition AM-1s remain in service that would give Amtrak either expansion of east coast trains or horrors move the equipment to some or all of the Superliner train sets? The AM-1s do have much less mileage and maybe seating could be altered. The dual vestibules of AM-1s would be superfluous.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby DutchRailnut » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:17 pm

were all counting chickens before they are even picked to be ordered. there is no order and we have a long time to go .
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby Matt Johnson » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:02 am

Why the sudden affinity for fixed or semi-fixed trainsets? I thought Amtrak was generally opposed to that for maintenance and operational flexibility reasons.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby Jeff Smith » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:52 am

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the Sprinters have dual cabs so they can just run around? The Chargers on the other hand only have one cab, right? So for corridor operation, “bi-directional” would indicate they just don’t want to wye the coaches.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby Ryand-Smith » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:22 am

Yep, The Sprinters (and I think every mainline NEC electric since 1930 has been dual cab (because at DC they run around, South they have to wye which I can imagine is time consuming). This is why I am assuming they will use the Midwest style/california style cab car (but when I looked up the powerpoint there were no midwest cabs so are they using cabbages?)
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby gokeefe » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:47 pm

Matt Johnson wrote:Why the sudden affinity for fixed or semi-fixed trainsets? I thought Amtrak was generally opposed to that for maintenance and operational flexibility reasons.


I didn't read it that way.

75 trainsets or their railcar equivalents.


Just nominally leaving the door open.

My assumption is 8 car trainsets. Roughly 600 cars total including foodservice. Seems to imply a slight increase over the original fleet size.

Obviously a major increase over what they have now.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby dumpster.penguin » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:41 am

There is a theory that the optimal "trainset" would be 6 carriages, including the sandwich bureau.

(1) An even number allows the economy of permanent pairs.

(2) Corridor offshoot routes like Albany/Buffalo and Springfield need (or currently have) fewer carriages, say 4 on average; run 8 and you've got too many vacant coaches racking up miles and needing pointless inspections.

(3) The Acela replacements will have more seats to sell, so tightening capacity of NE Regional will steer more passengers to pay higher fares.

(4) Amtrak has no mandate to carry the indigent on the NE Corridor, where low-cost buses have proliferated. Shorter Regionals would prop up load-factor without discounts.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby NaugyRR » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:20 am

dumpster.penguin wrote:(2) Corridor offshoot routes like Albany/Buffalo and Springfield need (or currently have) fewer carriages, say 4 on average; run 8 and you've got too many vacant coaches racking up miles and needing pointless inspections.


Albany trains usually run with six cars, and I feel like they could benefit by adding another coach. The past few Empire trains and Adirondacks I've ridden have been pretty packed, and on at least one occasion I've had to ride the cafe car all the way to Saratoga from Rhinecliff 'cause there were absolutely no seats in coach.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby hs3730 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:48 am

The Empire Corridor replacement equipment would probably be purchased by NYS separately, no?
If not, if they are going to trainsets I think we would either see sets captive to their routes rather than a universal go-everywhere option, or multiple lengths that can be combined. For example Empire Corridor, Keystone and Downeaster would get 6 cars, Springfield would get 3 cars, and NEC would get 3+6 cars (perhaps snipping off the 3 car set at DC along with the engine for the services that continue to VA).
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby eolesen » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:44 pm

Ryand-Smith wrote:Yep, The Sprinters (and I think every mainline NEC electric since 1930 has been dual cab (because at DC they run around, South they have to wye which I can imagine is time consuming). This is why I am assuming they will use the Midwest style/california style cab car (but when I looked up the powerpoint there were no midwest cabs so are they using cabbages?)


The Midwest order seems to have dispensed with the cab cars entirely when the vendor changed, but the need to run in push-pull hasn't gone away. I don't know if the plan will be to double-end the trains with two locomotives, retain F40 cabbages, or wait to see what happens with the cabbages that Siemens will be producing for Caltrans.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby Greg Moore » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:25 pm

NaugyRR wrote:
dumpster.penguin wrote:(2) Corridor offshoot routes like Albany/Buffalo and Springfield need (or currently have) fewer carriages, say 4 on average; run 8 and you've got too many vacant coaches racking up miles and needing pointless inspections.


Albany trains usually run with six cars, and I feel like they could benefit by adding another coach. The past few Empire trains and Adirondacks I've ridden have been pretty packed, and on at least one occasion I've had to ride the cafe car all the way to Saratoga from Rhinecliff 'cause there were absolutely no seats in coach.


Actually 6 cars on the Albany trains is a more recent phenomenon. They used to be routinely 5 cars.

In the past NYS has expressed an interest in more trains, so that's also a possibility (there's a gap of about 2 hours in the morning that would be nice to run another train during).

I also think there's enough movement in Massachusetts, that NYS needs to start thinking a decade ahead about possible trains going east from Albany.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby tomj » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:56 pm

My question would be what are the Amfleets getting replaced with? I would assume the same Siemens equipment us on the West Coast are going to get stuck with for the sake of making parts easy to get in the long run. (Congressional stupidity is going to make me eat those words) But where would the Amfleets be useful for regional service outside the Northeast? Would expanding into currently unversed/undeserved areas like Ohio or western Pennsylvania be higher on the list of priorities or expanding capacity on existing trains?
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:07 pm

well don't worry those 75 sets won't venture to far, by time you cover all regionals/empire service /harrisburg service they won't have many cars left .
as with all trains about 15 to 20 % will be out for inspections/repair/cleaning/ toilet servicing etc .
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby benboston » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:03 pm

Honestly, I think that the order should be for at least double that. Multiple reasons, for one, there is even better economies of scale. Furthermore, this gives the ability to make much more frequent service throughout much more of the country. More frequent service means that more people use because of induced demand, a law of economics, which is the reason that when highways are widened traffic gets worse.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby frequentflyer » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:02 am

benboston wrote:Honestly, I think that the order should be for at least double that. Multiple reasons, for one, there is even better economies of scale. Furthermore, this gives the ability to make much more frequent service throughout much more of the country. More frequent service means that more people use because of induced demand, a law of economics, which is the reason that when highways are widened traffic gets worse.


I thought the RFP stated this was a first batch, so a follow will happen. In airline speak its called options. When airlines order aircraft those options when exercised will be at the same price of the original order.

Yes, most likely Siemens Vs coaches. At least Amtrak will have source of parts inventory to buy from, and design that has proven itself all over the world, rather than having to make parts themselves for a product that been out of production for decades.

Some of us have been riding on Amfleet since we were kids, since we have gotten married and we are still riding on them with our own kids. Time to move on .
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