Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby ACeInTheHole » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:51 am

8th Notch wrote:On another note, there is a go fund me for the families of 2 crew members that perished.

https://www.gofundme.com/memorial-fund- ... -amp-kempf

I’m glad Sean’s fundraiser is doing so well.. he is a good guy.
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby John_Perkowski » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:02 am

Admin note

Closed for housekeeping

JEFF: Let's keep the hyperbole' to a low roar, please? We already had one user beating a dead horse from the Cascades wreck... we don't need more of the same. That's why we have the safety topic, and the posts should be relevant in each respective topic.

Thanks,

Jeff
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby 8th Notch » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:29 pm

electricron wrote:
Tommy Meehan wrote:Based on the two satellite photos below, it looks like the siding where the CSX freight was parked began a short distance north of the Charleston Highway overpass (the roadway visible in both images, marked US 321 in Fig 2). In Fig 1 the location of the siding switch would be at the uppermost right corner, though obscured by trees. The impact was at the area in Fig 2 on the siding track about opposite where the rail car on the right is parked. It appears the distance between the siding switch and the collision point were only 300-400 feet at most. So the Amtrak train, traveling at 59 mph, is unexpectedly diverted off the main track onto the siding without enough distance to stop short of the freight train ahead. Tragic.
download/file.php?id=17560&t=1
.

Take a look at the Fig.1 photo again. From a bird's eye view, the main follows along the divergent path, the siding follows along the straight path. Could this configuration have confused the person asked to verify its position, the signal maintenance man? How well labeled are the switch throws? Are maintenance crews expected to learn the railroad configuration as well as the engineers and conductors? Who is qualified to throw and verify the position of the switch?
Apparently, someone was confused and reported to the dispatcher the wrong information.


Switches are marked with targets or banners, not to mention normal is always lined for the main.
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:37 pm

switches only have targets in manual block, and yards, switches in signal territory do not have targets.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby farecard » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:57 pm

Customer Service just called me and told me 97 is not running OLR-MIA on Monday.

They offered me the earlier 91 which is not ideal, but I don't have a lot of choice; it's that or a bus.
(I asked if it would run at all, in hopes of getting to Tri-Rail, but......)
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby litz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:22 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:switches only have targets in manual block, and yards, switches in signal territory do not have targets.


Watch the NTSB "B-roll" of the investigators looking over the scene of the accident.

Right at the 2:00 mark, they're walking north-to-south on the mainline.

They walk right past the powered track switch leading to the siding in the auto loading/unloading facility.

The next scene cut is a south-to-north view, and visible on the right side of the frame is the switch target for the accident siding's manual track switch, clearly showing a yellow diverging flag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnciDLLbxHo&t=4s
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby 8th Notch » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:57 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:switches only have targets in manual block, and yards, switches in signal territory do not have targets.


There are non powered switches that are connected to mainline track that have switch targets, not very common but I’ve seen plenty on CSX territory.
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:11 pm

litz wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:switches only have targets in manual block, and yards, switches in signal territory do not have targets.


Watch the NTSB "B-roll" of the investigators looking over the scene of the accident.

Right at the 2:00 mark, they're walking north-to-south on the mainline.

They walk right past the powered track switch leading to the siding in the auto loading/unloading facility.

The next scene cut is a south-to-north view, and visible on the right side of the frame is the switch target for the accident siding's manual track switch, clearly showing a yellow diverging flag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnciDLLbxHo&t=4s


the yellow sign with orange stripe is warning sign for speed restriction ( http://signals.jovet.net/rules/CSX%20Signal%20Rules.pdf )
the switch you see is manual/time locked switch, it is NOT controlled by dispatcher. there is no interlocking there.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby the trainguy » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:14 pm

litz wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:switches only have targets in manual block, and yards, switches in signal territory do not have targets.


Watch the NTSB "B-roll" of the investigators looking over the scene of the accident.

Right at the 2:00 mark, they're walking north-to-south on the mainline.

They walk right past the powered track switch leading to the siding in the auto loading/unloading facility.

The next scene cut is a south-to-north view, and visible on the right side of the frame is the switch target for the accident siding's manual track switch, clearly showing a yellow diverging flag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnciDLLbxHo&t=4s



The only thing I see in the video is a yellow temporary speed restriction sign unless I'm totally missing something else.
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby pumpers » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:56 pm

litz wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:switches only have targets in manual block, and yards, switches in signal territory do not have targets.


Watch the NTSB "B-roll" of the investigators looking over the scene of the accident.

Right at the 2:00 mark, they're walking north-to-south on the mainline.

They walk right past the powered track switch leading to the siding in the auto loading/unloading facility.

The next scene cut is a south-to-north view, and visible on the right side of the frame is the switch target for the accident siding's manual track switch, clearly showing a yellow diverging flag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnciDLLbxHo&t=4s


Actually, I beleive at 2:00 they are walking south to north. On page 5 of this thread I posted the following Google map link (you might need the "3-D" view option" installed), showing the view looking north - essentially the view of the video at 2:00. First comes the auto loader siding on the right side, and then farther north the siding of the accident on the left side: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9091321 ... a=!3m1!1e3 Note especially the metal control box (not sure exactly for what) to the left (west side) of the turnout to the siding of the accident in the link. We don't ever get a good view of where that box is in the video, from what I can tell - it is screened out by the walkers.

Then starting at 2:08, they are standing around looking south, standing right about where the turnout to the siding of the accident is

EDIT: what we are calling the turnout to the autoloader siding, actually seems to be a turnout to a short section of a second main track, and then about about 100 yards further south, near the highway bridge, off of that "2nd main" there is a another turnout to the east, off of that "2nd main" , which is the siding that goes into the autoloader facility
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby Railjunkie » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:32 pm

The yellow sign with an orange stripe is a warning sign it will be used for temp speed restrictions and stop signs, place min of 2 miles from the restriction.
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby farecard » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:42 pm

Sumwalt said in his 2nd briefing that the collision pushed the freight back 15 feet.
If the train was backed in, it would not have been slack [sorry if that is the wrong term...] at the time; ergo the whole consist was pushed back.
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby mark777 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:10 am

I'm gonna speak on what is my personal opinion and experience. Any employee who has been qualified to operate or work with the train equipment out on the main is theoretically aware and familiar with their surroundings including sidings, switches, and rules. If a situation arises where you either question it or need to inquire more information in order to operate the train or rail equipment safely, you refer to your rule book and timetable for assistance. Knowing this, I find it a bit difficult to understand how the crew of the CSX train would even assume that the proper alignment of that switch in question, is reverse lined to the siding instead of being lined normal to the main when one clearly knows where the main track is suppose to be. I also am one of those who absolve the Amtrak crew of any wrong doing in this accident, and anyone with any experience in the rail industry can clearly identify what the mistake was here in this situation. If you report to the dispatcher "switch lined normal and locked", you are essentially verifying that YOU the Conductor or Brakeman (on some RR), have done exactly what the rules prescribed and have not only lined the switch to the normal position but locked it properly so that nobody can vandalize or sabotage the switch in order to derail or misroute a train. If you report this to the dispatcher but have failed to do the action itself, then you are in violation of the rules and are at fault for what transpires afterwards. Even if the crew reported to the dispatcher that the switch was NOT properly lined and the dispatcher failed to acknowledge it, I cannot comprehend why it would be appropriate to leave the switch in the reverse position unless there is a malfunction of the switch that would require a maintainer to fix, or if the main track was out of service as per a General Order or Notice that would instruct the crew to line the switch reverse. There really isn't much else there that would absolve the CSX crew of any wrong doing unless there was circumstantial evidence that the switch itself was sabotaged by a rogue person who possess the key to open the switch. And my guess is that if the FBI is involved in this, the possibility of it happening has crossed the minds of those in law enforcement. Better safe than sorry, but without going off topic, you see where the CSX crew lacks possible scenarios where they can be absolved. It was human error combined with having a signal outage in place that contributed to this accident, as I'm sure other uncontrollable conditions such as being night time with obstructed views being a factor as well.
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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:22 pm

The FBI involvement probably has to do with crew member swearing that he lined switch for main, so they will probably do forensic (finger printing etc)
my question is why did NTSB question a trainmaster ?? did he help crew with moves due to lack of 3th crew member ??
did this trainmaster reline the unloading facility switch, but forgot the siding switch ??

the Cdr was probably riding lead car nearly 4000 feet into siding, can't imagine him shoving back blind in middle of night.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Postby justalurker66 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:42 pm

pumpers wrote:EDIT: what we are calling the turnout to the autoloader siding, actually seems to be a turnout to a short section of a second main track, and then about about 100 yards further south, near the highway bridge, off of that "2nd main" there is a another turnout to the east, off of that "2nd main" , which is the siding that goes into the autoloader facility

It is not a second main ... there are two sidings. One siding on each side of the main with the long one (one mile) being where the CSX train was parked and the short one (3/10 mile) being on the opposite side of the main with turnouts to the auto loading ramps.
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