Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby GirlOnTheTrain » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:29 am

Mod note: Ladies and gents, while PTC (or lackthereof in this case) is a valid discussion angle in regards to this thread, please lets not wander too far off the beaten path here.
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby justalurker66 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:43 am

STrRedWolf wrote:Which I think would be a goal of PTC, to be a third layer of cab signals, would it not?

Without getting too deep, PTC is a system that attempts to make sure that the other layers are being followed. Approach a permanent speed restriction (such as the curve in Washington State) and the system makes sure the train slows down before the restriction (regardless of signals displayed). Pass an approach signal and the system makes sure the train follows the rule that applies to that signal (such as an immediate reduction in speed as well as prepared to stop at the next signal - at a location known to the system). Temporary restrictions can also be added so the train slows or stops as required by those restrictions.

I would not consider PTC cab signalling any more than I would consider an alert, informed conductor as a cab signal. Consider PTC as an alert, informed, non-distracted conductor in the cab ready to take action to safely operate the train. Something that if present and activated could have prevented a growing list of incidents, accidents and fatalities. Including the Cascade wreck. We need to have no more preventable incidents.
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby CRail » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:44 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:why ?? are you an employee and should you have that info ?

Do timetables have corporate trade secrets? Passcodes to security sensitive places? The secret ingredient to McDonald's special sauce? None of the ones I've seen have. In fact railroads typically share portions of timetables with other railroads in case their operations may be so affected. Do you just feel there's some sort of hierarchy in which you hold superiority because you were a railroad employee and others here aren't? Everyone here is interested in learning about this incident and all the facts surrounding it and therefor have good reason to want that info. Every time something happens we get the noble anti-speculation lectures by the same people who tell us we aren't privy to facts. Well then what the hell is the point of posting to a discussion board!? [/rant]

justalurker66 wrote:We need to have no more preventable incidents.

We need to have a realistic approach to safety and not concern ourselves with knee jerk lunacy. You will never have no more accidents, and every accident caused by automatic equipment failure will be just as preventable as those by human error.
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby 8th Notch » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:25 pm

While I’m not going to take sides here, Dutch has a point. “Employee timetable” is lableled such for a reason, and there is a Norac rule about protecting company business/property. While things have gotten out publicy, the railroads can and will discipline an employee who is known to violate such rule.
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby justalurker66 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:36 am

CRail wrote:
justalurker66 wrote:We need to have no more preventable incidents.

We need to have a realistic approach to safety and not concern ourselves with knee jerk lunacy. You will never have no more accidents, and every accident caused by automatic equipment failure will be just as preventable as those by human error.

The railroads have had decades to operate safely without PTC. This isn't knee jerk.
8th Notch wrote:While I’m not going to take sides here, Dutch has a point. “Employee timetable” is lableled such for a reason, and there is a Norac rule about protecting company business/property. While things have gotten out publicy, the railroads can and will discipline an employee who is known to violate such rule.

We can wait for the NTSB to publish the excerpts as a public record. Otherwise it is not hard to find recent timetables. In this case the relevant information has already been revealed.

(Worrying about non-employees seeing a timetable reminds me of people who worry about ATCS monitoring. The ill-informed that somehow think that a monitor is actually a control and those who view any non-employee with any interest in trains as a terrorist. Or an idiot.)
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby Bostontoallpoints » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:33 am

http://www.bellevuereporter.com/news/be ... ak-others/

Garrick Freeman was a conductor in training when the derailment occurred in DuPont, Washington, according to a lawsuit filed in Pierce County Superior Court on Wednesday.

At approximately 7:30 a.m. on Dec. 18, 2017, Freeman was riding in the lead locomotive of Amtrak Cascades train 501 “for the sole purpose of training/familiarization as a conductor” for the route, documents state. He was sitting on the fireman’s side of the locomotive when the train “derailed and hurtled to a stop on Interstate 5.”

Filed by lawyers Joseph Grube and Karen K Orehoski of Breneman Grube Orehoski, PLLC and John Coletti of Paulson Coletti Trial Attorneys PC, the suit alleges the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, Amtrak and others – not yet named – are responsible for Freeman’s severe, permanent and disabling injuries to his hip and ribs, which caused severe pain, suffering and emotional shock.

To treat his injuries, he received expensive services from doctors and surgeons through x-rays, MRIs, medicine, appliances, surgery, hospitalization and household care.

Freeman alleges the defendants were negligent and is seeking damages for pain, suffering, disability, loss of enjoyment of life, future medical expenses, economic damages, earning capacity and others in an amount to be proven at trial.

Freeman’s attorneys could not be reached for immediate comment.
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby Tadman » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:32 pm

justalurker66 wrote:The railroads have had decades to operate safely without PTC. This isn't knee jerk.


What would you determine as the threshold for "safely"? To put it in perspective, there are more people killed daily in car crashes than in five years on-train. There are more people killed in a year in grade crossings than in a decade on-train.

The railroad industry is up there with the airlines in terms of regulation and safety. They are darn good.

Demanding a $15b pseudo-science technology in light of those numbers is exactly knee-jerk. It's a vote getter from politicians that need a photo op.

Image

Honestly I'm not making this up. The train is 17x safer than a car. These are all real numbers. See link below to Northwestern University study.

http://www.cityam.com/assets/uploads/co ... a411b2.jpg

justalurker66 wrote:
8th Notch wrote:While I’m not going to take sides here, Dutch has a point. “Employee timetable” is lableled such for a reason, and there is a Norac rule about protecting company business/property. While things have gotten out publicy, the railroads can and will discipline an employee who is known to violate such rule.

We can wait for the NTSB to publish the excerpts as a public record. Otherwise it is not hard to find recent timetables. In this case the relevant information has already been revealed.

(Worrying about non-employees seeing a timetable reminds me of people who worry about ATCS monitoring. The ill-informed that somehow think that a monitor is actually a control and those who view any non-employee with any interest in trains as a terrorist. Or an idiot.)


Agreed. If the ETT was really secret or dangerous info, they'd be a lot more protective of it.
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby east point » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:14 pm

Maybe in the false assumption that will keep ETTs out of lawyer's hands ?
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby GirlOnTheTrain » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:42 pm

Oh Tad, the Bloomie almost being taken out by the Hippo GIF made my day :D

Because, safety as you know...is paramount.
(Also LOL channel 8, that's not MNRR)
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby David Benton » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:27 pm

Its not like PTC( as been installed in the USA) is overly high tech. Really , it should have been done decades ago. if you count up the costs of avoidable accidents over the last 20 years , I think it would surpass the cost of installing PTC. Plus you'd have 110 mph or better trains in a lot more places. And potenially closer spacing/ faster running of freight trains.
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby MACTRAXX » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:48 pm

GirlOnTheTrain wrote:Oh Tad, the Bloomie almost being taken out by the Hippo GIF made my day :D

Because, safety as you know...is paramount.
(Also LOL channel 8, that's not MNRR)


G/T: I recall watching this news conference on News 12 Connecticut - what got me is just how
close to the platform edge Senator Blumenthal is standing - much too close in my opinion with
the direction of travel at his back. At least if he was facing the train he could see it coming and
better react to it - this Amtrak train surprised everyone there.

I also want to mention personally when it comes to trains I am a "##NUMBERS##" guy which
means that I like to spot numbers on equipment. To adequately do that you need to be back
away from the platform edge - which is just the safer way to be trackside - just saying... :wink:

Back to the Cascade wreck topic: I will look forward to the NTSB's take on this accident and what
they find here. I also agree with the thought about ETTs is that if they were truly "top secret" that
they would be more regulated by the railroads in question as to who possesses them.

Having old collectable ETTs from the 60s and 70s is much different to me then having current
ones. I understand that railroads do want to control access to them - no problem there...

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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby litz » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:00 pm

People, arguing about the timetable is pointless.

1) the railroads REQUIRE their employees to protect the information in those (and other) documents (like rule books). They are considered proprietary information. It usually says so in huge capital letters right on the title page of the document. Not doing so will subject the person responsible to discipline. This is also usually in large capital letters in the document.

Period. Nothing will change this, so don't ask about it.

2) yes, the NTSB may choose, as they did in the 188 incident, to gather that information and release it in the public docket. That's their right to do so as the investigating agency.

Because of 1) and 2), you will not see this timetable until such a time -- and if -- the NTSB adds it to their docket. Let's not waste time here arguing over it.
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby Tadman » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:35 pm

From a lawyer's perspective, it's a silly argument from either direction.

1. Don't ask people to disclose stuff that might get them in trouble with their employer. If there is language in the document that it is clearly secret or protected, the employer is within legal rights to discipline you internally or through the courts.

2. That said, this is the lowest degree of legal protection possible and is a bit like the mattress police looking for tags. There is little traceability as to who has which copy and when it was leaked. As far as I'm aware, employees do not sign a piece of paper promising to keep these docs secret. Many find their way to the public and the employers usually ignore that. All of which would make the case near impossible in courts and not easy in an internal proceeding.

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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby JoeG » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:23 am

Union Pacific used to sell ETTs on their website. They stopped sometime after 9/11.
Tadman, whatever the numbers, the Spuyten Duyvil, Amtrak 188 and Amtrak 501 crashes demand some kind of action. PTS or equivalent should have been installed years ago. Maybe it could have been a cheaper system. But in this day and age there is just no excuse for having train crashes caused by human error, that could have been prevented by automation. For that matter, the technology to prevent this stuff has existed since the 1920s or before. There is no reason that train crashes shouldn't be rarer than plane crashes, which have been almost eliminated in commercial aviation in this country. Incidentally, no one cared what that cost, we just wanted it done.
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Re: Cascade Wreck 18 December 17

Postby AgentSkelly » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:05 am

BNSF actually gave out PDF timetables on its website to I think 2008. I have a copy....I shall look to settle this...
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