Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Order

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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby eolesen » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:45 pm

The cost of maintaining a gallery car is always going to be lower since there are multiple parties who could do the work.

Talgo was a closed shop i.e. only they could maintain the WisDOT equipment, and that made it a very expensive contract which the Walker Admin wasn’t willing to foist on taxpayers.

Gallery cars on an express service are entirely suitable for Chicago – Milwaukee. Where it gets confusing is the person who rides a gallery car on one leg, then winds up on the Empire Builder for the other direction. It’s a confusing product.

Extending Metra into Wisconsin would be a no-brainer, but the southern WI counties want nothing to do with Illinois mismanagement, politicians and corruption.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby MisterUptempo » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:18 pm

eolesen wrote:Extending Metra into Wisconsin would be a no-brainer, but the southern WI counties want nothing to do with Illinois mismanagement, politicians and corruption.


True. They have more than enough mismanagement, politicians, and corruption in Wisconsin to deal with already.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby Tadman » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:25 pm

Metra already goes to Kenosha, WI. As a Chicago area-agency, it's less corrupt than many.

As for Ron's question about why Wisconsin would want to do maintenance with a class I if they wouldn't with Talgo, it is amply answered above. Talgo would have required a new stand-alone shop. That is a hefty price tag. Right now, the 14 horizons are maintained at 14th street, a small part of the hundreds of coaches maintained there every day. Whether the hypothetical galleries are maintained at Amtrak 14th or the BNSF shops across the road, they are a small part of a much larger operation already run efficiently. I suggested BNSF as they already have a trained workforce and parts stock for that exact rolling stock. Either way, it is much different (I.E. smaller undertaking) than building an entirely new facility to service 2 trainsets. As a bonus, if one of these hypothetical gallery cars is sidelined due to significant failure, you could sub in a Metra car for the day/week.

In commuter config, these cars hold 130+ people while the Horizon holds 74. That's double.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby Anthony » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:31 pm

They could order some gallery cars from Nippon Sharyo in Rochelle. Unlike the failed California/Midwest bi-level order, they won't have to start from scratch, including risking failure of another crush test. The gallery cars are a proven design that NS owns the rights to and can thus just pull the designs off the shelf and start building the cars.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby Backshophoss » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:41 am

Amtrak did not use the ex-CNW LD Gallery cars except for the "Valpo Dummy" and some of the Chicago-MILW corridor runs.
Since the cars were built by Pullman-Standard,Amtrak was not thrilled about Gallery Cars from "A" day onward.
The Gallery Car were not meant to be LD cars.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:08 am

Anthony wrote:The gallery cars are a proven design that NS owns the rights to and can thus just pull the designs off the shelf and start building the cars.
Chicago's original gallery cars were by Budd and Pullman, did Nippon Sharyo purchase the license from BBD? (owner and license holder of Budd and Pullman designs)
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:22 am

R36 Combine Coach wrote:
Anthony wrote:The gallery cars are a proven design that NS owns the rights to and can thus just pull the designs off the shelf and start building the cars.
Chicago's original gallery cars were by Budd and Pullman, did Nippon Sharyo purchase the license from BBD? (owner and license holder of Budd and Pullman designs)


The gallery design is so old that any original patents have long since expired, and it was multi-sourced almost from Day 1: Budd producing batches more or less overlapping from '50-80; St. Louis batches in '55 and '70; and Pullman batches in '56, '58, and '60-70 overlapping. Morrison-Knudsen, Amerirail, and Canadian Vickers produced most of them from '80-95 after Budd and Pullman started scaling back. Even though Bombardier gobbled up most of the remnants of their original builders, I doubt it costs a cent in license fees for anyone to use the design. The only derivations have been the 21st century design features that N-S slapped on the old design. Given that galleries from the original batch in '50 are still on the road with Metra on their umpteenth rebuild, a gallery car pretty much is what it is. Just like a 1976 original BLV I trailer pretty much is what a 2018 factory-fresh BLV VIII is, the cab cars being the only thing that's seen any noteworthy design evolution in 40 years.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby Tadman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:57 am

Backshophoss wrote:Since the cars were built by Pullman-Standard,Amtrak was not thrilled about Gallery Cars from "A" day onward.
The Gallery Car were not meant to be LD cars.


Funny how this type of dogma trips us up every time.

Comet, Amfleet, F40PH. Amtrak's three best series of equipment. None were meant to be long distance.

Meanwhile, gallery cars are able to make the 2:30 run on the South Shore to South Bend, but "we cant use them because its not long distance" to Milwaukee.

This is the kind of thinking that lands us in a dumpster fire like the recent Midwest bilevel order. If you worked for GE or GM, you'd be shown the door quite quickly.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby frequentflyer » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:34 pm

Tadman wrote:
Backshophoss wrote:Since the cars were built by Pullman-Standard,Amtrak was not thrilled about Gallery Cars from "A" day onward.
The Gallery Car were not meant to be LD cars.


Funny how this type of dogma trips us up every time.

Comet, Amfleet, F40PH. Amtrak's three best series of equipment. None were meant to be long distance.

Meanwhile, gallery cars are able to make the 2:30 run on the South Shore to South Bend, but "we cant use them because its not long distance" to Milwaukee.

This is the kind of thinking that lands us in a dumpster fire like the recent Midwest bilevel order. If you worked for GE or GM, you'd be shown the door quite quickly.


https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GC ... VsGDDVVJUM:

This is your idea of a intercity rail car?.........Alrighty then. That will attract riders for sure.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby Anthony » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:36 pm

I forgot to say, the gallery cars would be used on the Hiawatha Service only.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby CHTT1 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:01 pm

Any new gallery cars for Milwaukee service should be equipped with Amtrak seats used on Amfleet and Horizon. A cafe car would be nice, too. Maybe even one car in a consist fitted out as business class.
C&NW used such cars on its trains to northern Wisconsin and I think they were quite popular. Amtrak squandered the former C&NW intercity galleries on the Valpo locals and then they disappeared.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:54 pm

The X Train proposal (slow speed Los Angeles-Las Vegas) used gallery cars in their graphics and it seemed to be fine.

Have gallery cars ever been certified for >79 mph operation? Given that these cars are to operate at 125 mph, it may be that the gallery design with its old-style trucks and suspension just hasn’t been certified.

Mods: is there a thread on Amtrak Gallery cars where these posts can migrate?
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby frequentflyer » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:56 pm

WOW! I thought you guys were joking but you are freaking serious about using a Gallery commuter car for a intercity rail car! If it was such a good idea would not progressive California/Illinois order them? Brightline would have ordered them instead of most likely paying more for Siemens cars (see mods,I used Brightline to keep this in thread theme).

Instead of ordering Horizon cars, Amtrak should have ordered more gallery cars, it would have been cheaper! The solution to Amtrak car problems were right across the coach yard in the Metra yard?

And yes, I remember the gallery cars on the Hiawatha and an Indiana train in the 80s. There is a reason why Amtrak did not keep them.

I guess one can gut a commuter car and install less and softer seats, but what does that get you that the Siemens order does not? A lower floor?

There is a big difference between single level commuter car turned intercity and a cattle Gallery car turned intercity. The Metra traveler has no choice when traveling to Aurora, the Amtrak customer does.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby Jishnu » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:36 pm

I am curious about how one would go about fitting a regular Amtrak Coach seat in the upper gallery level of gallery cars and still leave room for people to walk by it to the next seat. Just curious mind you. I can;t figure it out.

And if you can't do that then the additional capacity in a Gallery Car would be a very minimal increment over a regular single level car, no?
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby electricron » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:42 pm

Tadman wrote:Funny how this type of dogma trips us up every time.

Comet, Amfleet, F40PH. Amtrak's three best series of equipment. None were meant to be long distance.

Meanwhile, gallery cars are able to make the 2:30 run on the South Shore to South Bend, but "we cant use them because its not long distance" to Milwaukee.

This is the kind of thinking that lands us in a dumpster fire like the recent Midwest bilevel order. If you worked for GE or GM, you'd be shown the door quite quickly.

Galley cars don’t go all the way to South Bend on the South Shore, they only go as far as Michigan City. Galley cars maximum speeds per Nippon Sharyo is 79 mph. FYI, Amfleets, Horizons, and Siemens single level cars can go 125 mph. Existing Surfliners are certified to go 90 mph, existing California cars can go 125 mph.
On lines where going faster than 79 mph is desirable, all the cars in the shared fleet need to do so. While the Hiawatha trains may be happy going 79 mph, other Amtrak trains based from Chicago will not.
An example, You have a 6 car train with 5 cars capable of going 125 mph and 1 car capable of going 79 mph, what speed can it go over tracks certified for 125,110, 90, or 79 mph? The answer for all tracks would be 79 mph. Yes, just one bad apple in the consist slows the entire train down. That’s the reason why having a homogenous fleet is preferable.
Last edited by electricron on Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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