Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Order

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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby gokeefe » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:22 pm

I think they feel there's a difference in preventability. Mass casualty incidents of course tend to get a lot more attention especially if they call into question operating practices or engineering and not just individual judgmemt.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby mdvle » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:29 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote:"Pictures, and video, are worth a thousand words".

While the incident had no loss of life any only five injuries there were 150 passengers trapped and had to be extricated by emergency responders.

What if there had been fire?


Then the on train evaluation would have been different.

The key point is that the passengers were not "trapped" by damage to the train, but by damage to the overhead electrical wires which had a live cable posing a threat both to passengers and emergency crews.

Without knowing the specifics of the collision speed it is difficult to know how well the train behaved, but given that pictures show that the emu pushed 2 freight cars off the tracks my non-expert opinion is the emu held up quite well.

http://www.dw.com/en/germany-opens-inquiry-after-train-collision-injures-dozens/a-41671489
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby NeedhamLine » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:20 am

Some more renderings and a little more information about the new single-level cars: http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/transprog/ctcb ... ailcar.pdf

Some of the take-aways:

-The cab car, coaches and Charger have a very cohesive look - fairly unique for US (non-HSR) passenger rail, where radically different vehicle profiles in a single consist are the norm.
-Very modern-looking interior, similar to Brightline (lots of tables) but a more conventional color scheme
-Timeline: production to start in 2018; first trainset (their terminology) in service summer 2020; all trainsets in service by mid-2023
-Cars are described as "ADA accessible." They have the very wide corridors of the Brightline cars, but no description of how disabled passengers will get into them.
-A poster on the MBTA forum seemed to indicate that the Caltrans sets would be fixed trainsets, while IDOT would be individual cars. I haven't seen anything to verify that, and the renderings don't have enough detail to confirm.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby gokeefe » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:13 pm

Well in the grand scheme of things ... "that took about 5 minutes". Amazing.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby gokeefe » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:16 pm

NeedhamLine wrote:-Cars are described as "ADA accessible." They have the very wide corridors of the Brightline cars, but no description of how disabled passengers will get into them.


Given that California has low-level platforms it sounds to me as if they will be using portable lifts at the stations.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby Matt Johnson » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:03 pm

Seems like the cab car might've made sense for Brightline vs two 4400 hp locomotives for 4 coaches! In any case, I think that's probably a preview of what will eventually replace the Budd Metroliner cab cars.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby east point » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:18 pm

Remember Bright line has the option to add more cars to their train sets with their options to Siemens.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby OrangeGrove » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:36 pm

gokeefe wrote:
NeedhamLine wrote:-Cars are described as "ADA accessible." They have the very wide corridors of the Brightline cars, but no description of how disabled passengers will get into them.


Given that California has low-level platforms it sounds to me as if they will be using portable lifts at the stations.


The February 2018 issue of Trains magazine (pg. 22-23) states the cafe and business class car(s) will have built-in wheelchair lifts.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby deathtopumpkins » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:48 pm

Matt Johnson wrote:Seems like the cab car might've made sense for Brightline vs two 4400 hp locomotives for 4 coaches! In any case, I think that's probably a preview of what will eventually replace the Budd Metroliner cab cars.


Brightline equipped its trainsets with two locomotives for a couple reasons:
1) Reliability. Brightline has a lot of eyes on it, and is fighting significant opposition. They care a LOT about the optics of running reliable service, because they know if one of their trains is significantly delayed due to a mechanical issue their detractors in the local media are going to be all over it. They're also trying to lure riders who aren't traditional rail users, and care a lot more about the service being on time than (off-NEC) Amtrak passengers. They're trying to make a good impression.

2) The trainsets will be lengthened once the Orlando extension opens. They figured it made more sense to buy all the locomotives they'll need at once (probably got a cheaper unit price) and get all the bugs worked out now, rather than placing another order later, when Siemens may well be too busy with Amtrak, etc. orders to get to it in a timely manner.

3) While one locomotive could easily pull even the lengthened post-MCO trainsets, if they hope to run at 125 mph like planned, the extra horsepower will come in very handy.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby BandA » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:23 pm

And with locomotives on both ends, Brightline grade crossing incidents will most likely be resolved in favor of the train. Also cab cars require the controls of a locomotive. I think they require more safety inspections than a coach, so might as well make locomotives instead of cab cars. And cab cars might not be allowed to have passengers in their "crumple zones"
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:48 pm

The cabs are supposed to be combine cab-baggage-coaches, which keeps passengers out of the crumple zone for head-on collisions. (That said, FRA control car and first-car-after-locomotive rules may change following the NTSB Cascades crash investigation, I’ll be staying tuned.)
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby gokeefe » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:33 am

Matt Johnson wrote:In any case, I think that's probably a preview of what will eventually replace the Budd Metroliner cab cars.


I thought of that as well. It appears that the era of the walk-through cab car is ending. Interesting in some senses because the Next Gen specs were designed as walk-through.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby Matt Johnson » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:39 pm

gokeefe wrote:
I thought of that as well. It appears that the era of the walk-through cab car is ending. Interesting in some senses because the Next Gen specs were designed as walk-through.


Note that Amtrak is giving up the walk-through ability on the Metroliner cabs by replacing the door with a bolted on steel plate in order to better seal the cab. These new Siemens cab cars will undoubtedly offer superior crash protection in addition to better cab ergonomics.

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/643636/
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby frequentflyer » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:17 pm

Never saw the need to walk through a cab car. Engineering protection should always take precedence over convenience.
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Re: Siemens Single Level Cars for CA/IL fka Nippon Sharyo Or

Postby eolesen » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:31 pm

Walking thru the cab car has never been about convenience. It's been about equipment utilization. You don't want to be stuck with a bunch of equipment that's useful for one position in the train.

Case and point: on Metra, we will see 2-3 cab cars used in a rush hour consist. That consist will be broken up into two off-peak consists based on need, and by having extra cars within the consist, you also have a degree of operational protection for bad ordered cab controls (i.e. the car isn't suitable for push service, but is still rail-worthy enough to serve mid-train and be able to get it back to a shop for repairs).
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