Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby BandA » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:43 am

I assume the Charger order will be exercised in full, then if additional equipment is needed for Amtrak or various Commuter Rails, stuff will get refurbished, perhaps with lower power ratings for shortish consists?
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby mtuandrew » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:45 am

If someone can stuff a GEVO 12 into a P40DC, more power :wink: to them. But who says that a Genesis wouldn't get either the same 7FDL-16 at Tier 0+ or an entirely different prime mover.

Whoops, how'd that last one get in the list? :wink:
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby Backshophoss » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:02 am

The Cummings prime mover is the untested variable for now,the daily use of this prime mover has yet to be proven.
Yet Siemens is "counting" on this prime mover to be successful. :P
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby amtrakhogger » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:00 am

mtuandrew wrote:If someone can stuff a GEVO 12 into a P40DC, more power :wink: to them. But who says that a Genesis wouldn't get either the same 7FDL-16 at Tier 0+ or an entirely different prime mover.

Whoops, how'd that last one get in the list? :wink:


The fourth choice is one I like, because inside of every GE beats the heart of an Alco!
"I will stop at St. Avold."
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby dowlingm » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:39 am

Backshophoss wrote:The Cummings prime mover is the untested variable for now,the daily use of this prime mover has yet to be proven.
Yet Siemens is "counting" on this prime mover to be successful. :P
what would be your threshold for QSK95 to go from "unknown" to "known"? There are more long established high speed alternatives (MTU 4000 for example) but they wouldn't have the political advantage of manufacture in the VP's home state.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby gokeefe » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:58 pm

Backshophoss wrote:The Cummings prime mover is the untested variable for now,the daily use of this prime mover has yet to be proven.
Yet Siemens is "counting" on this prime mover to be successful. :P


I really have trouble with the idea that an engine which has seen extensive service in marine applications would be considered "yet to be proven". I understand that there are subtle differences but I have never bought into the idea that the Cummins power plant would have to prove itself in the same manner as a new build engine with no operating history.

I think Siemens made a perfectly reasonable call on this one. I guess only time will tell.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby mtuandrew » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:49 pm

gokeefe wrote:I really have trouble with the idea that an engine which has seen extensive service in marine applications would be considered "yet to be proven". I understand that there are subtle differences but I have never bought into the idea that the Cummins power plant would have to prove itself in the same manner as a new build engine with no operating history.

I think Siemens made a perfectly reasonable call on this one. I guess only time will tell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbanks ... sel_engine

Seagoing and railway applications are similar in output, but locomotives are much more demanding environments.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby Backshophoss » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:49 pm

Cummings as a Class 8(18 wheel trucks) engine builder has not been that great,fairly good at destroying Grade 8 hardware and crankshaft
bearings on a regular basis. Had one that was a shop queen,blew up the ECU and had a habit of leaking oil at the turbo,had an oil cooler
that was worthless.
As for HEP Gen-sets and as prime movers of Gen-set Switchers,a fair amount of success there.
Very little R&D done as a RR prime mover in freight service,so still an unknown there and as a middle distance/corridor service passenger
power,still an unknown,the first stated owned SC-44's will prove successfull or will become shop queens.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby SRich » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:57 pm

if the genies are rebuild they need with in a couple of years still a replacement. So its cheaper to buy the new stuff with up-to-date electronics and fuel consumption.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesi

Postby Alcochaser » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:37 pm

Here is the thing about the SC-44, the F125 and a lot of other newer diesels.
They use "high" speed diesel prime movers. Higher RPM with physically smaller engines.

Traditional railroad prime movers have always been medium speed diesels. EMD, GE and most others.

The FDL16 tops out at 1050rpm. Same on the GEVO 1050rpm.
The 710 tops out at 900rpm. The 645s were pushed to 950 in the F model. The 245h/1010j at 1000rpm.

Why? Medium speed diesels have better wear characteristics. The faster you run an engine, the more wear and tear is produced. This is why you see 15 year heavy overhaul cycles. The prime movers will last that long.

The CAT Motor in the EMD F125 is a 1500rpm motor. Using 20 smaller cyilinders.
The SC-44 QSK95 pushes 1800RPM

The higher RPM diesels have been avoided by railroads for a long time, but have been forced on the railroads as its easier to get the higher RPM engines to pass emissions. But they will need more frequent servicing. For example from the factory the gen set switch engines (which use the same or similar prime movers) came with a recommended 10 year heavy overhaul. Many are not even making that.

So now you have Amtrak, who often puts millions of miles on a locomotive, looking to rebuild or buy new. Unfourunately nothing being sold new is a medium speed diesel. (Outside of road freight engines) I don't blame them for looking at options.

As to the small F59PHI fleet. There is allready an on the shelf EMD ECO upgrade for them. Caltrans has done thiers.

Also want an example of a HEAVY rebuild, that required a lot of engineering work? Look at what the VIA F40PH fleet looks like now.

Heck even if you don't go with GEVO. Rebuild with FDL16 with complete new electronics.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby DutchRailnut » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:52 pm

you still not addressing that two stroke engines , both in railroad and maritime are biggest polluters ??
so your point about the new diesels is beyond moot?
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby BandA » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:00 pm

I'm assuming all these medium-speed engines are two-stroke, high polluting. So not possible for new unless someone reinvents their combustion cycle. Nissan claims to have reinvented their combustion cycle for upcoming gasoline automobile engines, so it might be possible.

The QSK-95 brochure says they have superior quality materials which give them long life. Are you going to believe the mechanics over the brochure?
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby mtuandrew » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:46 pm

Someone at Amtrak would have to really love the GEVO to want it in an existing Genesis. The Gennies' 7FDLs are fine for 4200 hp and can reach a high enough emissions tier for rebuild standards; it'd be foolish not to examine rebuild options, especially given the seeming success of NS Altoona and their AC44C6M rebuilds.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby Alcochaser » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:52 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:you still not addressing that two stroke engines , both in railroad and maritime are biggest polluters ??
so your point about the new diesels is beyond moot?


What I am talking about has nothing to do with 2 stroke vrs 4 stroke. Virtually everything outside an emd 710, 645, 567 is a four stroke. Including every GE prime mover ever made in a four stroke.

The EMD 245h/1010j is a four stroke.

What I am talking about is that fact that the QSK95 is a relatively fast spinning engine. More wear, more maintence.

The only reason the 2 stroke is still around is some long held EMD stubbornness. They really should have stopped making 2 strokes back in the 80s. Everyone else, and I do mean everyone else industry used four cycles. GE, ALCo, etc.

EMD litterally wasted years and a ton of money trying to get the 710 to meet tier 4. They never really succeeded. It took Cat taking over to change the mindset.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby OrangeGrove » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:39 am

BandA wrote:I'm assuming all these medium-speed engines are two-stroke, high polluting. So not possible for new unless someone reinvents their combustion cycle. Nissan claims to have reinvented their combustion cycle for upcoming gasoline automobile engines, so it might be possible.

The QSK-95 brochure says they have superior quality materials which give them long life. Are you going to believe the mechanics over the brochure?


Both the EMD 1010 and the General Electric GEVO engines are "medium speed" prime movers which meet tier 4 emissions standards (notably, without emissions aftertreatment). Both are in active production for freight locomotives today.

Can't speak for anyone else, but personally I'd like to wait and see how the QSK-95 (and the SC-44 in general) fares over a few years, before committing to new power. Rebuilding the P-42 fleet would possibly provide this opportunity in a cost efficient manner.
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