Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:54 pm

Ken W2KB wrote:When potential use for display of historic railroad equipment and in the last few years constructing a historic trolley line to shuttle park attendees from the nearby NJT Lightrail station was proposed, the enviro groups made statements such as 'displaying railroad artifacts or operating a trolley shuttle would be commemorating the environmentally disastrous polluting past. The park must remain as an environmental oasis and such use would be entirely out of character and purpose of this park.'
Very ironic, since a rail trolley shuttle is much cleaner than the steam and diesel equipment of the terminal's heyday.
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby R&DB » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:06 pm

Another major impediment to any possible use of CNJ's Jersey City Terminal is the 4-track Newark Bay Bridge is long gone. The ship traffic into Port Newark would never allow for a new bridge across the bay.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:07 pm

No doubt, Mr. R&DB, this incident was fresh in the minds of those formulating the plan to close the CNJ terminal and route CNJ trains into Newark Penn. That enabled the bridge you note to be taken out of service. No doubt the discontinuance of the B&O trains was an additional factor.

Other than the lift spans being removed, I think the trestles were simply abandoned in place.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby Ken W2KB » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:05 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote:No doubt, Mr. R&DB, this incident was fresh in the minds of those formulating the plan to close the CNJ terminal and route CNJ trains into Newark Penn. That enabled the bridge you note to be taken out of service. No doubt the discontinuance of the B&O trains was an additional factor.

Other than the lift spans being removed, I think the trestles were simply abandoned in place.


I was 9-1/2 years old when the train plunged off the bridge, and lived in Bayonne on West 9th Street, about 3 city blocks from the shore of Newark Bay next to the bridge. I distinctly recall walking to the shore immediately south of the bridge, seeing the hanging coach, etc.

That said, the September, 1958 accident was not a cause of the bridge removal. On April 30, 1967 all CNJ mainline and Jersey Shore passenger trains were rerouted to Newark Penn Station under the NJ "Aldene Plan", leaving only a shuttle train between Bayonne and Cranford, NJ plus a few freight trains, and most importantly to the State of New Jersey, eliminating the need for the state to heavily subsidize the CNJ ferry service between Jersey City and downtown Manhattan. The New York Port Authority (jointly owned by NY and NJ) had acquired the bankrupt H&M Tubes in the early 1960's, renamed it Port Authority Trans Hudson (PATH) and it continued to lose a lot of money. Moving the CNJ passenger train termination to Newark Penn greatly increased PATH ridership thus reducing PATH losses. The root cause of the removal of the CNJ Newark Bay bridge was the desire of the New York Port Authority to expand ports Newark and Elizabeth which it owns and operates, with the resultant greatly increased number and size of ships bottlenecked by the bridge draws. The Port Authority convinced the US Coast Guard to declare that the bridge was a hazard to navigation. So in August,1978 the Bayonne Shuttle was discontinued and plans went ahead to remove the draws/center portion of the bridge. The mile or so of trestles did remain in place for a number of years, but the Port Authority wanted them removed as well. I recall seeing in the newspaper a photo offered by the Coast Guard as evidence in the hearing (the City of Bayonne wanted the trestles to remain in place to potentially restore service with a much wider draw to accommodate large ships) conducted on the matter in which Coast Guard testified that the bridge trestles were falling apart and had to be removed as a hazard to navigation before they collapsed. The photos the Coast Guard produced to prove that the bridge was falling apart were of tie plates, spikes and track bolts which were loose on the bridge. None of the photos showed any structural members or damage. The finding was the trestles were in danger of collapse, thus a hazard to navigation, and had to be removed, which they were soon thereafter. Only a few concrete piers remain at the Bayonne side in very shallow water.

To get back on topic of reuse of the CNJ Jersey City Terminal, from time to time there have been proposals for instituting heavy or lightrail passenger service over the former PRR-Lehigh Valley joint bridge about three miles to the north of the former CNJ bridge location, with the potential for reuse of the CNJ JC Terminal for transfer to modern ferries. None have gone beyond the proposal stage to my knowledge.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby JimBoylan » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:34 pm

The Lehigh Valley's drawbridge is still in service, and it led to a Lehigh Valley commuter terminal on the North side of the Jersey Central terminal. Passengers all used the same ferries.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby R&DB » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:08 am

JimBoylan » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:34 pm

The Lehigh Valley's drawbridge is still in service...


The LV bridge is used to service the Tropicana facility, but no tracks enter Liberty State Park and probably never will. The environmental interests would prefer to erase the area's railroad history.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:18 am

Thank you Mr. Brown, for getting the record and timeline straight. Also thank you for jogging my memory with the name of the project to have the CNJ access Newark Penn by means of a physical interchange at Aldene to the LV then on to the PRR at Hunter.

Now regarding Newark Bay, "I'd swear" that last September on approach to KLGA, I noted the bridge remains. You are a pilot (and I guess if that's an approach to RWY 31, I guess it's "kind of General Aviation get lost"), but you could well have an idea what, if anything beyond a mirage, I might have seen.
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby R&DB » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:51 am

Mr. Norman wrote:
Now regarding Newark Bay, "I'd swear" that last September on approach to KLGA, I noted the bridge remains.


What you may have seen is the remains of the old CNJ Newark Branch bridge over the Passaic River which is in the condition you noted, movable span removed.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:34 pm

Another derailment just now, LIRR west end of Penn Station.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby Ken W2KB » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:37 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Thank you Mr. Brown, for getting the record and timeline straight. Also thank you for jogging my memory with the name of the project to have the CNJ access Newark Penn by means of a physical interchange at Aldene to the LV then on to the PRR at Hunter.

Now regarding Newark Bay, "I'd swear" that last September on approach to KLGA, I noted the bridge remains. You are a pilot (and I guess if that's an approach to RWY 31, I guess it's "kind of General Aviation get lost"), but you could well have an idea what, if anything beyond a mirage, I might have seen.


You are most welcome. Below are from Google Maps:

Elizabeth (west) end of bridge location: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6556558,-74.1644554,922m/data=!3m1!1e3 Nothing other than the slight bulkhead on the shoreline.

Bayonne (east) end of bridge location: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6547573,-74.1407173,388m/data=!3m1!1e3 Nothing other than a few remaining concrete piers extending 400 or so feet west.

The zoomed out view: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6555022,-74.152265,1554m/data=!3m1!1e3

Bayonne shoreline: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6540977,-74.1383161,3a,15y,283.15h,89.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shC40Mz_ruuTunxrnpZKvAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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Black River Railroad Historical Trust :: [/url]
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby NY&LB » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:48 am

You will find some OUTSTANDING photos of the CNJ Newark Bay bridge here: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?q=newark+bay+lift&sp=2 or better sorted here: https://www.loc.gov/resource/hhh.nj0876.photos/?sp=1&st=gallery

Also, Mr. Norman, I assume you were referring to the approach to Newark Liberty International Airport - KEWR (runway 4R/22L) vs. the airport named after a New York City mayor (KLGA)
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby adamj023 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:52 pm

R36 Combine Coach wrote:Another derailment just now, LIRR west end of Penn Station.


Happened in West Side Yard. I don’t believe Amtrak trains are affected. Right as they were about to restore service from Track 19, this incident happened.

Fortunately no fatalities or passenger injuries. Will mess up LIRR commutes till they fix it. Unclear if it will be fixed by peak Am tomorrow as it depends on extent of the damage, Today was obviously a disaster for commuters.

MTA owns the West Side Yard which also allows access to Empire connection for Amtrak I believe which isn’t back in service yet due to ongoing work.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:36 pm

NY&LB wrote:Also, Mr. Norman, I assume you were referring to the approach to Newark Liberty International Airport - KEWR (runway 4R/22L) vs. the airport named after a New York City mayor (KLGA)


Negative, Mr. NY&LB. I was flying into KLGA, which was a diversion from my intended KHPN (puddle jumper CX; no crew). Before X-ing the Lower Bay and getting on a heading of about 40 giving that wonderful view of Manhattan, I did see sitting Left side this trestle that I thought was the remnants of the CNJ bridge, on which Engineer Wilburn had a heart attack and his Fireman did not properly respond.

Also, lest we forget, I no longer live in my "native NY" area. When I go out to visit my Sister in Greenwich, I normally fly into KHPN. The last time I had been into KLGA (stay away from that ----hole if you can) was '01 when my Father was "going going". That flight approached a landing on 22 over the Sound.
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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby Erie-Lackawanna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:05 pm

adamj023 wrote:MTA owns the West Side Yard which also allows access to Empire connection for Amtrak I believe which isn’t back in service yet due to ongoing work.

The West Side Storage yard is separate and distinct from the Amtrak Empire Connection, and Amtrak does not require access to WSSY in order to get to/from the Empire Connection. The yard leads for WSSY are north of the Amtrak North River Tunnel main tracks, and the Empire Connection is south of the Amtrak North River Tunnel main tracks.

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Re: Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Postby JamesRR » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:33 pm

Anyone mind if we keep it about Penn Station and the ongoing track repairs?
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