Ill Fated HHP-8s

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Ill Fated HHP-8s

Postby ChrisU » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:28 pm

So obviously now that the HHP-8s are retired/OOS what will become of them, Scrap? Or will they be returned to Bombardier? I've also heard that when the units worked as intended they actually were pretty good runners, so why is it that Amtrak never invested into fixing the problems they were plagued with?
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby SRich » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:28 pm

The Amtrak versions are owned by bombardier. When the new Amtrak owned ACS 64 locs came in to service the old HHP-8 are returned to the owner. I don't know the plan for these retired unit's. Amtrak don't use them anymore.

HHP-8 are more powerfull then the new ACS 64 Electrics :wink:
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby mtuandrew » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:28 am

SRich wrote:HHP-8 are more powerfull then the new ACS 64 Electrics :wink:

Especially now. :P

I believe that Bombardier didn't support the HHP-8s well, and their electronics are out of production so parts are difficult to source. More than that, you'd have to get from an Amtrak person.
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby amtrakhogger » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:42 am

SRich wrote:The Amtrak versions are owned by bombardier. When the new Amtrak owned ACS 64 locs came in to service the old HHP-8 are returned to the owner. I don't know the plan for these retired unit's. Amtrak don't use them anymore.

HHP-8 are more powerfull then the new ACS 64 Electrics :wink:


Not quite, ACS-64 rated at 8600hp vs 8000hp for HHP8.
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby 8th Notch » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:45 am

amtrakhogger wrote:
SRich wrote:The Amtrak versions are owned by bombardier. When the new Amtrak owned ACS 64 locs came in to service the old HHP-8 are returned to the owner. I don't know the plan for these retired unit's. Amtrak don't use them anymore.

HHP-8 are more powerfull then the new ACS 64 Electrics :wink:


Not quite, ACS-64 rated at 8600hp vs 8000hp for HHP8.


Not to mention the boast ;)
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby Backshophoss » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:35 am

The Hippos were a design varient of the Acela power cars,but had parts that were different enough,
that were not shared with the Acela power cars,after the lawsuits between Amtrak and BBD were settled,
Amtrak gained outright ownership of the Acela sets,BBD retained ownership of the Hippo's
Believe the Hippo's lease ends sometime soon,and ends maintaince for the MARC Hippo's
at Wilmington electric shop.
It's unknown what BBD will do with Amtrak's Hippo's at lease end,or if BBD will offer support to MARC Hippo's.
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby SRich » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:49 am

amtrakhogger wrote:
SRich wrote:The Amtrak versions are owned by bombardier. When the new Amtrak owned ACS 64 locs came in to service the old HHP-8 are returned to the owner. I don't know the plan for these retired unit's. Amtrak don't use them anymore.

HHP-8 are more powerfull then the new ACS 64 Electrics :wink:


Not quite, ACS-64 rated at 8600hp vs 8000hp for HHP8.


Thtat's correct, but the ACS 8600 hp is only for a short time and the HHP-8 has continuous 8000 hp
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby ThirdRail7 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:06 am

ChrisU wrote:So obviously now that the HHP-8s are retired/OOS what will become of them, Scrap? Or will they be returned to Bombardier? I've also heard that when the units worked as intended they actually were pretty good runners, so why is it that Amtrak never invested into fixing the problems they were plagued with?


They did invest in them and they were good as long as certain conditions were met. They actually behaved better than the ACS-64s at this stage in the game. The problem was that there wasn't much support for them as a small fleet. Additionally, the HHP-8s were basically too good for the territory. I've mentioned this before. One of the reasons the AEM-7 did so well is because it is basically "dumb." They run until they catch on fire, blow up or something stops. They are a simple unit for an old piece of territory. The HHP-8s (and the ACS-64s) are a smart unit. As such, they are too smart for this old piece of railroad, which is riddled with a rough physical plant and a finicky catenary system, which wreaked havoc on the HHP-8s. The HHP-8s were unreliable because they attempted to protect themselves. The only difference between them and the ACSs is the long term support that Siemens pledged.


Backshophoss wrote:Believe the Hippo's lease ends sometime soon,and ends maintaince for the MARC Hippo's
at Wilmington electric shop.
It's unknown what BBD will do with Amtrak's Hippo's at lease end,or if BBD will offer support to MARC Hippo's.


The lease will not end soon unless it is bought out.


SRich wrote:
amtrakhogger wrote:
SRich wrote:The Amtrak versions are owned by bombardier. When the new Amtrak owned ACS 64 locs came in to service the old HHP-8 are returned to the owner. I don't know the plan for these retired unit's. Amtrak don't use them anymore.

HHP-8 are more powerfull then the new ACS 64 Electrics :wink:


Not quite, ACS-64 rated at 8600hp vs 8000hp for HHP8.


Thtat's correct, but the ACS 8600 hp is only for a short time and the HHP-8 has continuous 8000 hp



I guess you're unaware of the modification that allows for an almost continuous boost that pushes the HP rating. Until the modification, an ACS without the active boost wasn't even on par with a reman. It was barely stronger than a DC, without the risk of a speed pick up fault, of course,.
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby bdawe » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:52 am

So what's the maximum HP for the HHP-8s?
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby ThirdRail7 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:00 pm

bdawe wrote:So what's the maximum HP for the HHP-8s?


I believe it could actually achieve 8043 hp at maximum at one point. However, they were eventually de-rated. So were the remans. Actually, so were the DCs. Geez.

I'd also like to remind people of the fact that is often overlooked. These engines were not ordered to replace the AEM-7s. They were really ordered to replace the E60s since Amtrak's long distance train at the time were still quite large. An AEM-7 at the time was realistically limited to 10 cars on HEP. The remans were limited to 18 cars. Equipped with a direct release brake, an HHP-8 could pull 20 with HEP, but were used to haul 25 car trains when the roadrailer and express service operated.
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby ChrisU » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:32 am

ThirdRail7 wrote:
ChrisU wrote:So obviously now that the HHP-8s are retired/OOS what will become of them, Scrap? Or will they be returned to Bombardier? I've also heard that when the units worked as intended they actually were pretty good runners, so why is it that Amtrak never invested into fixing the problems they were plagued with?


They did invest in them and they were good as long as certain conditions were met. They actually behaved better than the ACS-64s at this stage in the game. The problem was that there wasn't much support for them as a small fleet. Additionally, the HHP-8s were basically too good for the territory. I've mentioned this before. One of the reasons the AEM-7 did so well is because it is basically "dumb." They run until they catch on fire, blow up or something stops. They are a simple unit for an old piece of territory. The HHP-8s (and the ACS-64s) are a smart unit. As such, they are too smart for this old piece of railroad, which is riddled with a rough physical plant and a finicky catenary system, which wreaked havoc on the HHP-8s. The HHP-8s were unreliable because they attempted to protect themselves. The only difference between them and the ACSs is the long term support that Siemens pledged.


Backshophoss wrote:
Believe the Hippo's lease ends sometime soon,and ends maintaince for the MARC Hippo's
at Wilmington electric shop.
It's unknown what BBD will do with Amtrak's Hippo's at lease end,or if BBD will offer support to MARC Hippo's.


The lease will not end soon unless it is bought out.


SRich wrote:
amtrakhogger wrote:
SRich wrote:The Amtrak versions are owned by bombardier. When the new Amtrak owned ACS 64 locs came in to service the old HHP-8 are returned to the owner. I don't know the plan for these retired unit's. Amtrak don't use them anymore.

HHP-8 are more powerfull then the new ACS 64 Electrics :wink:


Not quite, ACS-64 rated at 8600hp vs 8000hp for HHP8.


Thtat's correct, but the ACS 8600 hp is only for a short time and the HHP-8 has continuous 8000 hp



I guess you're unaware of the modification that allows for an almost continuous boost that pushes the HP rating. Until the modification, an ACS without the active boost wasn't even on par with a reman. It was barely stronger than a DC, without the risk of a speed pick up fault, of course,.



So now that they have this boost installed can they out perform the HHP-8s?
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby ApproachMedium » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:34 am

The ACS-64 blows the HHP-8 out of the water in performance. The HHP was totally useless as soon as you spit on the rail, and its limited abilities for power braking and dynamic/air brake combined manual control made it a real pain in the butt to operate. The ACS handles things much better, and when its dry out they REALLY fly. When they first set the boost to a continuous mode being able to keep a train on schedule or even make up time was much more feasable. Even with an HHPs heavy HP the traction system just could not put it down the same way the ACS can.

Interesting notes about how terrible HHP-8s were. Wheelslip control was on a per truck basis. The ACS-64, AEM-7AC are a per axle basis which gives you much better forward acceleration control under wet/slippery rail conditions. If one wheel slips on HHP, the whole truck gets shut down vs per axle on most other engines. The HHp-8s were all de-rated to about 7,100hp-7,500 hp depending on unit. None of them operated at their full rated abilities. The ACS is pretty much running at peak. AEM-7 AC units mostly run near their peak power, but not 100% all the time. Up to about a certain speed you can obtain close to the full 7,100hp but its a short bit of time. After that it must run thru a cool down period before you can tap in to its full potential again. Once its "tapped out" its about 6,000hp. AEM-7DC units maxed out at 1800 amps per traction motor, which comes to some 5,000hp due to issues with flashing over in the motors and burning them up too quick. These things were literally too powerful for themselves. Any of the old heads who worked on or operated them when they first came around will tell you they really flew! Not anymore! HHP-8s when built, were already 6 something years BEHIND in technology. The vendors who made all of the individual computer component systems in these engines, and the high speed trainsets, all went out of business either right when the sets were being made and the stuff had to be bought out and made by someone else, or they went out of business shortly after the order was completed and had to be absorbed by companies like Bombardier and Wabtec in order to maintain support. HHP computer systems are so dated, the newest PC capable of speaking to them is a windows XP 32 bit machine. The HST Tilt system cannot speak to anything newer than windows 98. The system used to program the AGATE and MPU propulsion systems in the HHP, AEM-7AC and HST require the use of a PCMCIA Flash card. Ones that were so old they required batteries to maintain their flash program. If the battery died, the program erased. If you know what that is, it will show your age and will def show mine.
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby SRich » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:43 am

Approach, Really? :-D :-D :-D

Are the new AMTRAK ACS 64 also MS Windows powered system ore something else?

What i don't understand is that if the HHP loc's are so worse build why did AMTRAK use these and didn't return them to the supplier immediately?
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby 8th Notch » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:22 am

Not that easy to just return a dozen leased locomotives from a contract and operational standpoint...
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Re: Ill Faited HHP-8s

Postby AgentSkelly » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:26 am

8th Notch wrote:Not that easy to just return a dozen leased locomotives from a contract and operational standpoint...


At least they had attempts to make them bearable!
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