P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby BandA » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:57 pm

I suppose they only need one engine in operable condition, then it would be push-pull ;). Or with two working engines the likelihood of a breakdown is halved!
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby hs3730 » Mon May 01, 2017 1:43 am

Chrisgr wrote:711 can be added to being repainted.

Thanks! I don't know if there's an authoritative list out there somewhere, so it's good to keep track of it here...
ThirdRail7 wrote:Indeed but the Maple Leaf (63/64) also change engines at ALB...just as the Lake Shore Limited does. If this drags on and they need to turn more trains in the station, they could change a few more trains at ALB and free up a few more P-32s


I awkwardly implied it before but everything already does an engine change in ALB, except for the Ethan Allen express and the occasional exception for operational flexibility (help a late train get back on time, or if there's a P42 shortage).
My point of mentioning the LSL though was that without dual modes it's not going to NYC. Since without a radical schedule change the LSL will always need two at the same time, two replacements should be paid for by Amtrak rather than NYS.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 am

Is there an outright operational or capacity enhancement advantage to running the Empire push-pull instead of turning around at Sunnyside? And I don't mean a defensive reaction to Penn being FUBAR a lot of the time, but genuine advantages to proactively having that flexibility? The PRIAA single-level coach procurement will have a Metroliner replacement available for purchase to the states in a cab-coach-bag default interior configuration. VTrans will be getting a couple of them assigned to ALB to handle the EAE's Rutland-Burlington reverse move, but if New York saw enough efficiencies they could convert the state-sponsored Empire trains entirely over to P-P by portioning out their coach order accordingly trailers vs. cabs. Would have the added advantage of giving every Empire slot a minimum half-car's worth of baggage storage without needing to custom-order any regular trailers in a half-bag configuration since this cab-coach-bag config is the factory default. Extra inspection and signaling overhead, however, means they would need to have a solid ops reason for doing so. But if a change in ops philosophy were desirable, they'll have their shot at portioning out their coach order for it in a couple years.


Also...wonder if PRIAA is fueling some of Cuomo's leverage game with AMTK. Under the new state-sponsored ownership structure, ALB engine swaps are now going to be a double-dip on fleet ownership costs. Since NY was not a member state of the Charger diesel order and aren't getting any corridor straight-diesels of their own, that means they have to borrow from the national equipment pool to run the Empire-Niagra, Maple Leaf, and Adirondack...where Amtrak can gouge them accordingly. This may mean that the next duals order has expectation from AMTK that engine swaps are going to end on all but the LD Lake Shore Ltd. and that the state-owned duals will be expected to cover the entirety of the state-sponsored routes. Which makes a good degree of sense, especially with the redrawn equipment jurisdictions thrown up by the new law. But it'll require NY to pad its duals order generously with extra units because they won't be able to stretch NYP-ALB coverage by keeping the duals on the Hudson conveyor belt if AMTK has ability to bring the pain on costs for borrowing from the national straight-diesel pool. Right now PRIAA's only set up to accommodate fees for nat'l fleet shares at the NEC engine-swap equipment bases (WSH, NHV, PHI) where those routes (VA Regionals, Springfield/Vermonter, Keystone/Pennsylvanian, and Downeaster-by-proximity) have no choice but to use the national Sprinter fleet and the relatively small total number of required diesels are easiest for accounting purposes to bill following the same pay-in fee structure with the national pool. NY, being operationally self-contained on the Empire and ALB shops with its state-sponsored routes, much more closely resembles the Midwest and Caltrans pools in division of ownership labor under the new structure.

Could be that Cuomo's making an early salvo at concessions for PRIAA forcing NY to pay a higher unit cost for its order of power than any other state is required to by the law. Threat to delay the order unless the feds up their share of Penn repair costs could be part of the playbook.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Railjunkie » Mon May 01, 2017 8:07 am

Ahh the only place the P32s don't go are the LSL west of Albany and Canada. Cant really say never on nord of the boarder ehh I have had them on trains to Montreal. The biggest problem with the dual modes is there just isn't enough of them and they are constantly on the move. At any given time there could be a couple OOS for maintenance/federal inspections or sent off to get the new and improved paint scheme.

Cab cars you say? Im not going over grade crossings protected or otherwise at a buck ten, I would think most of us in Albany would agree on that one. Cabbage cars? They dont work well in the Empire tunnel. Push pull works well on week ends when there is not as much traffic but the idea of tying up a through station track in Penn for an hour or so during the week is pretty much a non starter. Late afternoon trains maybe. Plus one would have to look at how the equipment turns are you going to waste a cab car in the trail on a trip west to NFL?
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby mtuandrew » Mon May 01, 2017 11:53 am

Time for some ALB-NYP-BOS behind third-rail (or diesel/AC) Chargers! Locomotive always leads and nothing sits in NYP.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby DURR5017116 » Tue May 02, 2017 2:17 am

mtuandrew wrote:Time for some ALB-NYP-BOS behind third-rail (or diesel/AC) Chargers! Locomotive always leads and nothing sits in NYP.


NYS did an RFI for dual modes and no currently available design could meet NYSs desired weight. Their weight target is 286,000lbs, all estimates are significantly over, including the Charger's. http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents ... roval.docx
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby DURR5017116 » Tue May 02, 2017 2:19 am

DutchRailnut wrote:Due to lack of parts even MN has no spares and is not in position to lend any units.
as for overhaul yes Amtrak has overhauled a few units inhouse.


I guess that would explain the rumors I've heard of 709 getting a new engine?
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Tue May 02, 2017 4:32 am

AMTK822401 wrote:
mtuandrew wrote:Time for some ALB-NYP-BOS behind third-rail (or diesel/AC) Chargers! Locomotive always leads and nothing sits in NYP.


NYS did an RFI for dual modes and no currently available design could meet NYSs desired weight. Their weight target is 286,000lbs, all estimates are significantly over, including the Charger's. http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents ... roval.docx


To be fair, that RFI was a long time ago. Siemens has no doubt has made some progress on the weight-for-performance tradeoffs in the years since. They weren't that far off the mark in their initial estimates, and now have a full-shipping revenue product in the Charger to work from instead of guesstimating from design schematics.

MPI's also probably out of the bidding game entirely since the HSP-46 has such a lemony-fresh smell to it that they've more or less abandoned the GEVO platform for any future product. Who knows what Bombardier has been up to with the company being in so much turmoil of late.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Railjunkie » Tue May 02, 2017 7:36 am

AMTK822401 wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:Due to lack of parts even MN has no spares and is not in position to lend any units.
as for overhaul yes Amtrak has overhauled a few units inhouse.


I guess that would explain the rumors I've heard of 709 getting a new engine?



The shops in Albany have been doing this type of work for a few years now. The 706 was completely rebuilt in Albany from the trucks up. That was the one that burned up in Penn. Either the 701 or 702 was the first rebuild, a couple of weeks ago there was a flat bed with a new diesel engine around back and I havent seen the 709 in a bit, but then again I dont wander around the shop much.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby DutchRailnut » Tue May 02, 2017 11:17 am

getting engine blocks is not problem, getting the electronics cards new or repaired.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby DURR5017116 » Tue May 02, 2017 10:06 pm

Aren't these units very similar to GE freight engines that are still in service? I suppose there are some unique components but aren't there shared ones as well.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby electricron » Wed May 03, 2017 12:11 am

Yes!
FYI: Number of various GE Locomotives built for Amtrak:
P32-8WH 1990 20 B-B GE 7FDL-12 3,200 hp (2,390 kW)
P40DC 1992–1994 44 B-B GE 7FDL-16 4,000 hp (2,980 kW)
P32AC-DM 1995 50 B-B GE 7FDL-12 3,200 hp (2,390 kW)
P42DC 1999–2002 228 B-B GE 7FDL-16 4,250 hp (3.2 MW)
Note either 12 or 16 cylinders version of the GE 7FDL diesel locomotive, since 1990.

GE has been making locomotives with the 7FDL diesel since 1968:
Here's a list pf GE locomotives using the 7FDL diesel:
Universal Series
U23B 1968–77 481 B-B GE 7FDL-12 2,350 hp (1,750 kW)
U18B 1973–76 163 B-B GE 7FDL-8 1,800 hp (1,340 kW)
U15C 1972–1980 170 C-C GE 7FDL-8 1,160 kW (1,560 hp)
U17C 1973–1981 30 C-C GE 7FDL-8 1,700 hp (1,270 kW)
U18C 1976–1998 92 C-C GE 7FDL-8 1,950 hp (1,450 kW)
U20C 1995–2005 984 C-C GE 7FDL-8 2,150 hp (1,600 kW)
U20C1 1966 10 1C-C1 GE 7FDL-12 2,150 hp (1,600 kW)
Dash 7 Series
B23-7 1977–84 536 B-B GE 7FDL-12 2,250 hp (1,678 kW)
BQ23-7 1978–79 10 B-B GE 7FDL-12 2,250 hp (1,678 kW)
B30-7 1977–82 279 B-B GE 7FDL-16 3,000 hp (2,238 kW)
B30-7A 1980–82 58 B-B GE 7FDL-12 3,000 hp (2,238 kW)
B36-7 1980–85 230 B-B GE 7FDL-16 3,600 hp (2,685 kW)
C18-7i 1993 10 C-C GE 7FDL-8 1,800 hp (1,340 481+163kW)
C30-7 1976–85 1,087 C-C GE 7FDL-16 3,000 hp (2,238 kW)
C30-7A 1984–90 57 C-C GE 7FDL-12 3,000 hp (2,238 kW)
C36-7 1978–85 599 C-C GE 7FDL-16 3,600 hp (2,685 kW)
Dash 8 Series
Dash 8-32B (B32-8) 1984–89 49 B-B GE 7FDL-12 3,150 hp (2.3 MW)
Dash 8-36B (B36-8) 1982 1 B-B GE 7FDL-16 3,600 hp (2,685 kW)
Dash 8-39B (B39-8) 1984–88 143 B-B GE 7FDL-16 3,900 hp (2,910 kW)
Dash 8-40B (B40-8) 1988–89 151 B-B GE 7FDL-16 4,000 hp (2.9 MW)
Dash 8-40BW (B40-8W) 1990 83 B-B GE 7FDL-16 4,000 hp (2.9 MW)
Dash 8-32C (C32-8) 1984 10 C-C GE 7FDL-12 3,200 hp (2.3 MW)
Dash 8-36C (C36-8) 1983 1 C-C GE 7FDL-16 3,600 hp (2,680 kW)
Dash 8-39C (C39-8) 1983–87 162 C-C GE 7FDL-16 3,900 hp (2,910 kW)
Dash 8-40C (C40-8) 1983–87 585 C-C GE 7FDL-16 4,000 hp (2.9 MW)
Dash 8-40CM (C40-8M) 1990 84 C-C GE 7FDL-16 4,000 hp (2.9 MW)
Dash 8-40CW (C40-8W) 1990–94 875 C-C GE 7FDL-16 4,000 hp (2.9 MW)
Dash 8-41CW (C41-8W) 1993 27 C-C GE 7FDL-16 4,100 hp (3,060 kW)
Dash 8-44CW (C44-8W) 1993 53 C-C GE 7FDL-16 4,400 hp (3,280 kW)
Dash-8 BB40-8M 6 B-B+B-B GE 7FDL-16 4,100 hp (3,060 kW)
Dash 9 Series
Dash 9-40C 1995 125 C-C GE 7FDL-16 4,000 hp (2.9 MW)
Dash 9-40CW 1996–2004 1,090 C-C GE 7FDL-16 4,000 hp (2.9 MW)
Dash 9-44CW 1993–2004 2,494 C-C GE 7FDL-16 4,400 hp (3.2 MW)
C38EMi 2006 55 C-C GE 7FDL-16 3,800 hp (2,830 kW)
C38AChe 2005–2006 78 C-C GE 7FDL-16 3,800 hp (2,830 kW)
Dash 9-40BBW 1997–2006 141 B-B+B-B GE 7FDL-16 4,000 hp (2,980 kW)
AC Series
AC4400CW 1993–2004 2,598 C-C GE 7FDL-16 4,400 hp (3.2 MW)

Total freight locomotives built with a 7FDL diesel = 13,607
Total passenger locomotives built with a 7FDL diesel = 342
There shouldn't be any problems finding spare parts for a diesel with a production run so long.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby DURR5017116 » Wed May 03, 2017 1:34 am

I meant electronics, but still.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Wed May 03, 2017 9:06 am

Mr. Junkie, I know you do this stuff for a living and therefore you have standing around here as an "expert witness".

Making the NYP-ALB Empires bi-directional "for the duration" makes sense as such minimizes time to be at Penn and will not tie up what's left of the through tracks.

But you know better than I how many 7XX P-32's are available for service and it would seem that anything running North or West of ALB will require an engine change. Also the supply of 1XX P-42's is quite finite as well, and more will be needed in the ALB pool to replace the P-32's.

Short term, best way; but long term it seems like a waste of motive power.

While I'm sure there are Top Secret Eyes Only contingency plans in place for having Penn and the Tunnels "taken out", I'd think a reroute of Empires into NYG would be part of such. Changing shoes is the least of it; qualifying C&E's "doable".
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Patrick A. » Wed May 03, 2017 10:30 am

Mr. Norman, as I learned in another thread, the Amtrak P32s are not allowed into GCT due to a lack of forward escape hatches, which are required for GCT operations. Doubtful that MNRR has enough spare Gennie power to provide lift for Amtrak, but would have to leave validation of that to Dutch or other MNRR insiders.
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