Siemens Charger Locomotives

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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby DURR5017116 » Sat May 24, 2014 11:22 pm

dowlingm wrote:What is this "I hope they fail" nonsense. If anything this should make EMD and GE being forward better offerings in specification and pricing terms - EMD has made an F125 sale which means there will be a running locomotive to compare vs the Charger. Also Siemens assemble in California rather than a race to the bottom state which cares little for advancing passenger rail (Indiana). That said, Cummins are placing a big bet here, having already had to substitute on Metrolinx' MP40 repower. Given their importance to rail (in the DMU space particularly) and non-rail transit engines a bad outcome for this contract could have significant wider implications.


I really don't like these engines. Pardon me for being stupid and selfish, but I think their best bet would be a Tier IV compliant GEVO locomotive vs. an unproven combination of manufactures, some of whom have never built an American road diesel. The reason we don't run european equipment is because we run under different conditions. (Grades, constant idleing etc.) Check out the SP 9010 project, you will find that the German engines were not well suited to the conditions abroad. Also, my understanding is stationary generators don't make good locomotive engines right off the shelf. This is because generators run at a constant output while locomotive engines are much more variable and are often run harder. Good day to you sir.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby dowlingm » Sun May 25, 2014 12:01 am

I have no idea what a 50 year ago diesel hydraulic locomotive has to do with anything. The Siemens locomotive is not using a German engine such as the MTU unit in their Vectron and Eurorunner offerings. It is using the Cummins QSK95, made in Indiana.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby Fan Railer » Sun May 25, 2014 12:10 am

AMTK822401 wrote:
dowlingm wrote:What is this "I hope they fail" nonsense. If anything this should make EMD and GE being forward better offerings in specification and pricing terms - EMD has made an F125 sale which means there will be a running locomotive to compare vs the Charger. Also Siemens assemble in California rather than a race to the bottom state which cares little for advancing passenger rail (Indiana). That said, Cummins are placing a big bet here, having already had to substitute on Metrolinx' MP40 repower. Given their importance to rail (in the DMU space particularly) and non-rail transit engines a bad outcome for this contract could have significant wider implications.


I really don't like these engines. Pardon me for being stupid and selfish, but I think their best bet would be a Tier IV compliant GEVO locomotive vs. an unproven combination of manufactures, some of whom have never built an American road diesel. The reason we don't run european equipment is because we run under different conditions. (Grades, constant idleing etc.) Check out the SP 9010 project, you will find that the German engines were not well suited to the conditions abroad. Also, my understanding is stationary generators don't make good locomotive engines right off the shelf. This is because generators run at a constant output while locomotive engines are much more variable and are often run harder. Good day to you sir.

Fact check: both engine manufacturers are American companies... aside from the stipulation that high speed diesels have yet to fully prove themselves in the rail application. So far, I have not heard any major problems from the CAT engines in the ALP-45DPs running for NJT, nor have I heard of any major problem with the CAT engines running in the NS PR43C. Cummins has not seen any major rail action here as far as I know, but I don't doubt their ability to perform in the long run considering their track record in other applications.

Your citation of the SP 9010 project is hardly relevant considering the locomotive is not even a diesel-electric; it is a diesel hydraulic manufactured back in the 1960s from an obscure company (Krauss-Maffei) that has not manufactured locomotives in decades, as far as I can find. You're judging something that hasn't even left the drawing board yet as of this posting, while at the same time coming from an apparently limited knowledge standpoint while doing so, which I find to be quite amusing.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby Backshophoss » Sun May 25, 2014 12:42 am

Cat/EMD have a proven "body of work" in prime movers,and still does "real life" testing in the field
the last known Cat test units were built and tested on NS,last year EMD did some testing over Raton Pass with
SD-70ACE and GEVO-44 units with BNSF help.
Cat has made good,reliable HEP plants,most if not all Cummins HEP plants have been pulled out and now
rot in rust gardens behind the shop,most Cummins powered Gensets stay close to the yard or drag a GP-38
around in case of a "crap-out" in the industrial park 20 miles away.
Siemens will find out soon enough if Cummins can/can not deliver a reliable prime mover for RR use.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby dowlingm » Sun May 25, 2014 6:56 am

Backshophoss wrote:Siemens will find out soon enough if Cummins can/can not deliver a reliable prime mover for RR use.
These guys will find out even sooner - a repower of an SD90.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby 25Hz » Sun May 25, 2014 3:39 pm

dowlingm wrote:
Backshophoss wrote:Siemens will find out soon enough if Cummins can/can not deliver a reliable prime mover for RR use.
These guys will find out even sooner - a repower of an SD90.


So looks like the wall of gennies may be replaced by 2-3 different locos?
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby Toaster718 » Sun May 25, 2014 7:35 pm

Bottom line is Amtrak has to get rid of the Genesis, they aren't tier compliant for today's EPA standards. Also this order is a state supported order so who knows what will replace the GE for the long distance trains and whatever the remaining state supported services decide to purchase.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby DutchRailnut » Sun May 25, 2014 8:14 pm

They do not have to be, a passenger locomotive build as tier 0 can be overhauled and stay at tier 0 till end of its life due to grandfathering clause.
as long as they do not put a different model engine or higher horsepower engine in it, it stays for life of locomotive.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby Backshophoss » Sun May 25, 2014 10:23 pm

Wonder how fast 1919 turns into a shop queen?
Siemens will keep a close watch on this test program.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby ThirdRail7 » Sun May 25, 2014 10:36 pm

Fan Railer wrote: You're judging something that hasn't even left the drawing board yet as of this posting, while at the same time coming from an apparently limited knowledge standpoint while doing so, which I find to be quite amusing.


OMG!! I've seen it all!

Image

The humor and jab at Fanrailer's expense (as usual) aside, he's 100% correct. The engine isn't built, assembled or tested, yet you're predicting the demise of the Genesis units while saying you don't like them. Additionally, there is still no proof that Amtrak will actually buy them for cross country trips.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby DURR5017116 » Sun May 25, 2014 11:25 pm

ThirdRail7 wrote:
Fan Railer wrote: You're judging something that hasn't even left the drawing board yet as of this posting, while at the same time coming from an apparently limited knowledge standpoint while doing so, which I find to be quite amusing.


OMG!! I've seen it all!

Image

The humor and jab at Fanrailer's expense (as usual) aside, he's 100% correct. The engine isn't built, assembled or tested, yet you're predicting the demise of the Genesis units while saying you don't like them. Additionally, there is still no proof that Amtrak will actually buy them for cross country trips.


Firstly, Fan Railer from my perspective is a rather combative individual whom I pay little attention.

Secondly, The Genesis units are a personal favorite of mine, hence why I am rather critical of any said replacement. The CHARGERS are where my ire is directed. Also, I did not say that the Gennies are going tomorrow due to this order, what is does mean, however, is that Amtrak is seeking to start pulling them out of service and replacing them. I do realize this is nothing but personal preference. I am rather partial to American manufactures as well. My citation of the SP 9010 project was to prove the point that foreign manufactures don't often consider the realities of American railroading. I was only trying to use it as an example. Mr Fan Railer merely committed many logical fallacies in assuming that I attempted to argue that "Because SP 9010 didn't work well the Chargers won't." This, once again, is due to his seemingly angry and combative nature.

Thirdly, Amtrak has already signed a contract with Siemens to build 32 of these engines for certain state supported services. Personally, being from New York, I'll enjoy my rides behind a P32AC-DM

Finally, Don't make faulty judgements about my knowledge base without giving me a chance to reply, it's rude.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby ngotwalt » Mon May 26, 2014 1:05 am

Firstly, Fan Railer from my perspective is a rather combative individual whom I pay little attention.

Secondly, The Genesis units are a personal favorite of mine, hence why I am rather critical of any said replacement. The CHARGERS are where my ire is directed. Also, I did not say that the Gennies are going tomorrow due to this order, what is does mean, however, is that Amtrak is seeking to start pulling them out of service and replacing them. I do realize this is nothing but personal preference. I am rather partial to American manufactures as well. My citation of the SP 9010 project was to prove the point that foreign manufactures don't often consider the realities of American railroading. I was only trying to use it as an example. Mr Fan Railer merely committed many logical fallacies in assuming that I attempted to argue that "Because SP 9010 didn't work well the Chargers won't." This, once again, is due to his seemingly angry and combative nature.

Thirdly, Amtrak has already signed a contract with Siemens to build 32 of these engines for certain state supported services. Personally, being from New York, I'll enjoy my rides behind a P32AC-DM

Finally, Don't make faulty judgements about my knowledge base without giving me a chance to reply, it's rude.


I'm sorry but I have little respect for your point of view which in my eyes boils down to this: "I like the Genesis and even though they are old, fuel inefficient, and prone to other problems, I want Amtrak to keep using them...just so I can be happy." Sorry, that isn't how the world works. I want NEC trains pulled by a mix of Phase III AEM-7s and GG1s, but I know the ACS-64s will be better for Amtrak in the long run. As for SP 9010, you missed the point there a bit too. SP bought the Kraut Boats (officially KM ML4000 C'C's) because they offered significant horsepower advantages over comparative US units. GP20s were the most powerful US units of that time, at 2000 horsepower, the ML4000s produced 3540HP. The SP and the Rio Grande had problems with these units in the mountains, namely they engines didn't get enough oxygen in long tunnels. Look at the D&RGW ML4000s sometime, each one had some kind of funky air ducts set up trying to handle the air intake issue. Some major US units had this problem also, hence the SD45T-2 and SD40T-2 tunnel motors. The KM units per SP's own records were reliable and well liked, enough so that SP order a second batch of them in 1964, in their years of service, only one suffered a major mechanical failure (less than the failure rate for US built units of the day). There is no denying the KMs were oddballs though, and when when equally powerful US units became available, the KMs were put out to pasture, because SD45s had shared components with other EMDs which made stocking spares and training maintenance personnel cheaper if SP retired the KMs.

Here is your biggest error...Amtrak isn't getting these locomotives, a consortium of Midwestern states and California are getting these locomotives, Amtrak might be the operator of these locomotives, but that isn't a certainty. These are for state corridors which Amtrak operates, but thanks to PRIIA states can seek outside operators. A lot can happen between now and the time these units are delivered. I argue that the whole premise of your thread is wrong, and that it should probably be locked.

Cheers,
Nick
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby ThirdRail7 » Mon May 26, 2014 10:03 am

Wait a minute, ladies and gentlemen.


ngotwalt wrote:
I argue that the whole premise of your thread is wrong, and that it should probably be locked.

Cheers,
Nick


I'll handle this part and it shouldn't take long since I'm getting a gut feeling. <sniff><sniff> Do you smell it? Take another whiff <sniff> <sniff>


Image


Let's narrow it down:

Old registry date?

Check!

Is the name relatively dormant after registration?

Check!

Clustered posting in a relatively short time in similar threads?

Check!

Combative while responding?

Check!

Overly opinionated without have a firm grasp of the details?

Check!


It is possible I'm mistaken, but I believe we've seen this show before in the form of PenseyGG1, CTRailfan and NHAirline.

This is only a theory that happens to fit the facts but if you use my check list and compare it to the names listed above, you'll find they follow the same pattern.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby dowlingm » Mon May 26, 2014 1:01 pm

Siemens do have a diesel powered train in service on American rails right now... in San Diego :-D :-D
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby DURR5017116 » Mon May 26, 2014 5:46 pm

dowlingm wrote:Siemens do have a diesel powered train in service on American rails right now... in San Diego :-D :-D


Oh really, is it a DMU ?
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