Siemens Charger Locomotives

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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:36 am

Greg Moore wrote:It seems to me that ultimately it would almost make more sense to bit the bullet and move as much to one standard on the NEC as possible. It seems it would simplify the locomotive side quite a bit if for example we did move to one frequency.

I know as you say moving to one voltage is a real bear, but dang, do different standards suck.

Of course I need to toss this out: https://xkcd.com/927/


Frequency AND voltage don't need to be done in a monolith. Amtrak was clearly biting off more than they could chew in the 80's-90's studies about whole-hog 60 Hz/25 kV conversion. Frequency change from 25 Hz to 60 Hz at same 12.5 kV was done low-key and without service disruption on the New Haven Line in 1984 by Metro North over a series of weekends because all it involved was: state-of-repair catch-up on component replacement to the actual catenary OCS in the years immediately prior, temporary staging for the source transition at the substations, then swapping out the circuit breakers to make the actual changeover and dismantling the temp structures for the changeover. Pretty seamless. Everywhere that's gotten constant-tension cat renewal in ex-Pennsy territory already has the OCS components that are compatible with 60 Hz because Amtrak specs that future-proofing detail. So it's mainly working one converter territory at a time starting from Sunnyside converter at the Hell Gate phase break down to wherever the phase break is between Sunnyside and Metuchen converters...refreshing any remaining state-of-repair to-do's with the OCS, returns, and signaling power that haven't been taken care of yet...then doing the staging. Expensive, but not the backbreaker that 25 kV is because the feeders running high atop the poles piping from Safe Harbor don't have to change, and none of the clearances have to change.

After you've gotten everything to D.C. Union changed over to 60 Hz/12.5 kV and put every E-mode vehicle on the East Coast on a diet with slim-down from porky 25 Hz transformer cores to svelte(-er) 60 Hz transformer cores, THEN you can start evaluating 25 kV upgrades. Those are mainly going to be upgrades to the feeders you didn't touch for the frequency change, very expensive upgrades and layout changes to the substations between the former converter sites (Sunnyside, Metuchen, etc.), and upgrades to other sub components at the former converter sites. Because any parts you order for OCS state-of-repair are going to follow Amtrak specs and be future-compatible with 25 kV, you really aren't duplicating efforts breaking the frequency job and the voltage job apart and scheduling them in separate decades lumped in with different state-of-repair jobs. And the weight + cost/maint savings for taking out the automatic voltage taps in the vehicles are far more negligible than getting rid of those 25 Hz transformer behemoths. Which buys you a lot more time to save Connecticut and those painfully short ex-NYNH&H clearances for last. It'll be more manageable to administer such a far-reaching megaproject that way to work the more consequential frequency change first, voltage second.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby gokeefe » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:57 pm

Haha ... Well at least in this case it's simply migration to one vs. another. As F-line notes I think 60Hz seems likely to come before anything else.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby ApproachMedium » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:14 pm

They arent going to just start pulling 25hz transformers and equipment out of engines, it really isnt just that easy.

And like i said before, amtrak has such a huge investment in the 25hz stuff that it really is NOT going anywhere anytime soon.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby STrRedWolf » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:47 pm

ApproachMedium wrote:They arent going to just start pulling 25hz transformers and equipment out of engines, it really isnt just that easy.

And like i said before, amtrak has such a huge investment in the 25hz stuff that it really is NOT going anywhere anytime soon.


It's more likely that newer engines will be compatible with 60Hz. Besides, when did they...

You know, we should be talking more about the Chargers and not about the electrics.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby cobra30689 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:07 pm

STrRedWolf wrote:What do the prime movers take on the Charger, then? AC or DC? Because the diesel generator on those things I think generates AC, and it'll make sense if the prime movers were AC.


To the best of my knowledge the last TRUE AC locomotive was the GG-1. AC is a little harder to control than DC.....today's modern diesels are either rectified DC from an AC alternator, to DC switchgear and DC traction motors, or as previously mentioned, a HV DC link to individual inverters for AC traction motors. Same goes for electrics. As far as motor voltage vs. third rail voltage....that is all nominal. Granted, most EMD traction motors are rated at 600V nominal......but I have watched the MG voltmeter on the locos that I run (MP36's) reach as high as 975-1000V for short periods depending on load.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby DutchRailnut » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:35 pm

and since two dc motors are in series the motor circuit is about 1200 volt.
locomotives like Genesis for example run alternator voltages of 1300 volt 3 phase.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby east point » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:44 am

Not enough rail car / loco clearance to ceilings of North river tunnels, NYPS, & east river tunnels for 25 kV. 25 kV not possible until clearances at Newark, PHL, BAL, and Wash union station among other locations raises various obstructions. + CAT will have to be rebuilt for 25 kV insulators which is being done in south New Jersey.. As well PRR built their whole support infrastructure and stations using 25 hZ. Amtrak is slowly replacing that 25 hZ equipment that is unrepairable or obsolete with 60 hZ but that requires new wiring and commercial electrical connections.

Additionally PRR 138 kV transmission lines are single phase. PRR also used direct transformers with ~ 8 mile separations.. Modern 60 hZ would be able to use fewer substations and auto transformer supply to CAT. That would require a major redesign and change to the system for a phased conversion to 60 hZ. A result could be a reduction to visual pollution.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby gokeefe » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:54 am

Does Siemens currently build a dual mode AC/Diesel for anyone e? If so what are the specifications?
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby ApproachMedium » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:57 am

The only dual mode ac diesel in the existence of the world is the ALP45DP
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby gokeefe » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:10 am

When I read the above I wondered if that could really be the case ... With my apologies to ApproachMedium ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-diesel_locomotive?wprov=sfla1

It looks as though the British Rail Class 88 (built by Statler), which just entered service this year, fits the criteria.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby east point » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:29 am

gokeefe wrote:When I read the above I wondered if that could really be the case ... With my apologies to ApproachMedium ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-diesel_locomotive?wprov=sfla1

It looks as though the British Rail Class 88 (built by Statler), which just entered service this year, fits the criteria.


There are many units either built or under contract all over Europe.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby gokeefe » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:47 am

Indeed but as I read it they are either "last mile" only, where the diesel is a low power auxiliary or they are DC power (to include overhead wire) for e-mode. AM specified AC power and I assume of course the inclusion of a full sized prime mover.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby ApproachMedium » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:31 am

Anything you see being operated across the pond is either a MU trainset or a last mile situation. The one russian example is just two locomotives connected back to back to form a dual mode loco situation.

Nothing to the exact form, voltage ability, and full versatility of the ALP45 has been built otherwise.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby Nasadowsk » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:42 pm

Stadler just landed an order for a unit that's 7000 kW electric, 3000 kW diesel. 6 axle unit, though. Also, 16 2/3hz operation.

10 units for a German RR.
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Re: Siemens Charger Locomotives

Postby DutchRailnut » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:03 pm

If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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