Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:56 am

Mr. Arlington, let us hope that appropriation is properly safeguarded so that it doesn't end up repairing Andy and Chris' highways.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby mtuandrew » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:27 pm

Fixed that for you, Gil :-D

I can't seem to find the original cost of the PRR/LIRR New York Tunnel Extension - how does it compare (adjusted for inflation) with said $900m?
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby Ridgefielder » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:23 am

I'd have to check my copy of Conquering Gotham to get the figure for the New York Tunnels & Terminals Extension. However using the official US Govt stats, $1 in 1913 (the earliest year for which they have figures) would be the equivalent of $25.05 in 2017. So if someone else out there gets to it before me, you can use that as your factor for adjusting.

Couple things would probably complicate the comparison.

First, the New York Extension included not just the North and East River tubes and Penn Station itself but also Sunnyside Yard, the New York Connecting Railroad and the Hell Gate Bridge. So whatever figure you find is going to be skewed upward.

Second, and skewing it downward, is Manhattan real estate. The PRR bought a lot of it for Penn Station and its associated yards. And the cost of that has increased by a lot more than 25x in the last 110 years.

One other thing to consider when looking at any historical construction costs & time-- our great-grandfathers had a somewhat shall we say "different" view of the appropriate amount of time and money that should be allocated to worker safety...
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby bdawe » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:56 am

Wikipedia, citing a book citing an ICC report puts the cost of "the station and associated tunnels" at $114 million dollars to the Pennsylvania Railroad by it's opening in 1910 for full service.

Using the conventional consumer price index, that amounts to $2.97 Billion
Using the "consumer bundle", that amounts to $6.19 Billion
Scaling against labor value, it amounts to between $12.6 Billion (unskilled wage) to $20.8 Billion (skilled wage)
Relative to GDP per Capita it would work out to $18 billion
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby n2cbo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:22 pm

Then add on the NJ & NY Corrupt Lawmaker surcharge (in other words kickbacks or bribes) it would add at least another billion$

Then add on all of the "Environmental Impact Studies" and then double the cost ... 8^)
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby bdawe » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:31 pm

Eh, Corrupt NY & NJ lawmakers were also a thing in 1910. I don't know how Tamanny Hall scales with inflation
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby east point » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:53 pm

Boring from the NY end may not be possible due to handling spoil ? Only a dire emergency such as one of the old bores shut down could allow for the disruption of boring from NY as well. Then again the building of 2 more TBMs would be limiting in time of construction ?
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby Scalziand » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:09 pm

Hasn't stopped the 7 extension or Second Ave tunnels. They will have plenty of access at the NY side until the second phase of the Hudson yards project gets built out. Seeing as they were able to work with Related to get the first part of the approach tunnel done before the first phase built over it, I think they'll be able to work something out as long as the tunnel doesn't get delayed too much.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby gokeefe » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:42 pm

At least the project is moving forward and has some startup funding in place.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby n2cbo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:02 pm

bdawe wrote:Eh, Corrupt NY & NJ lawmakers were also a thing in 1910. I don't know how Tamanny Hall scales with inflation


Yes, but back then it was funded by the PRR not the US Government...
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby bdawe » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:20 pm

In those days PRR was bigger than the US Government
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby gokeefe » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:23 pm

east point wrote:About the coring work going on. The more coring's done the better Amtrak and any contractor can bid on the project. As well alignment may be slightly different and maybe some parts deeper ?


One would think that this information is critical to operation of a TBM ... If you don't know the geological conditions it will be impossible to correctly equip the TBM.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby EuroStar » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:56 am

gokeefe wrote:One would think that this information is critical to operation of a TBM ... If you don't know the geological conditions it will be impossible to correctly equip the TBM.

The rig is close to a location where the line will be on viaduct. The tunnel will not begin until the line has crossed US1/9 going east. There is no way it has anything to do with the TBMs. If my guess is correct that the rig is actually related to the Gateway Project then the only thing that I can think of is to determine how deep the supports of the viaduct will need to go (and also probably what kind of supports would be appropriate for the job).
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby EuroStar » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:35 pm

The cost of the tunnels went up by about $3.2B as per this article https://www.wsj.com/articles/rising-gateway-tunnel-price-tag-could-cost-port-authority-800-million-1506510001. It is behind a paywall, so here is a quote.
Rising estimates for the new Gateway rail tunnel under the Hudson River could cost the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey an additional $800 million, according to statements made by a trustee of the agency tasked with building Gateway.

Elsewhere in the article it is said that the Port Authority is responsible for 25% of the budget. The previous authorization was for $2.7B, with the $800M, that is $3.5B times four and the total cost is currently at $14B. Note that this is just for the tunnel, not the whole Gateway with Penn South and the quad tracking to Newark Penn. In my opinion another few billion in cost increases are likely to delay the project indefinitely (officially it will not be cancelled, but as long as it is not funded it might as well be) until failure in the existing infrastructure occurs.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby east point » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:58 pm

There is another factor that we including this poster forgot about boring the tunnel. Look at the profile posted elsewhere. The tunnel bores in NJ start above sea level. That enables when boring starts from NJ no problem of sea water. If starting from NY the first item will be punching thru the Hudson river retaining wall that is below sea level. Risk management would indicate the any collapse first encountered breaching the wall might flood NYPS. Whereas coming from NJ the TBM can snug up to the wall with all tunnel rings in place mitigating the possibility of any Hudson river / brackish water intruding.
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